# Why does Cuba forbid emigration? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 21, 2015, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237 "2015-04-21T23:57:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/41 "2015-04-22T23:33:49Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > It is solely a reflection of your parents and your schooling that you turned out to be such a moral failure. That one earns you a warning, Haberdash. It is against the rules to directly insult another poster. If you absolutely must please do so in the BBQ Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/42 "2015-04-23T00:58:32Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Or, that the transportation from Jamaica…exists. I think my explanation is more likely true, but fair enough, I can’t prove it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/43 "2015-04-23T01:18:08Z")
> [@Haberdash](#): > > What’s with the sarcasm? Communism _is_ evil. What sort of monster denies this? Allende’s Chile wasn’t. If that counts. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/44 "2015-04-23T01:34:33Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > If emigration from Cuba reflects how terrible Cuban communism is, then the fact that 45% of Jamaicans have left should indicate that capitalist democracy is even worse. According to [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaican_diaspora), they mainly emigrate to other capitalist democracies: the U.S., the UK, and Canada. If capitalist democracy was worse than communist dictatorship, one would expect them to head for communist dictatorships, right? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/45 "2015-04-23T02:03:41Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > According to [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaican_diaspora), they mainly emigrate to other capitalist democracies: the U.S., the UK, and Canada. If capitalist democracy was worse than communist dictatorship, one would expect them to head for communist dictatorships, right? No, I’m mocking the idea that the emigration rate tells you much about the merits of a socioeconomic system. People don’t leave Jamaica because it’s a capitalist country, they leave because it’s a (relatively) poor country near a very rich one, and because Jamaicans have more opportunities to emigrate than, say, Malians. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/46 "2015-04-23T02:37:39Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > No, I’m mocking the idea that the emigration rate tells you much about the merits of a socioeconomic system. People don’t leave Jamaica because it’s a capitalist country, they leave because it’s a (relatively) poor country near a very rich one, and because Jamaicans have more opportunities to emigrate than, say, Malians. Not with a sample this small, no. That the very rich countries are democratic and capitalist probably means something, though. Exactly what is hard to say, since the most successful nations would be less likely to have communist revolutions. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/47 "2015-04-23T02:44:14Z")
I don’t think you can judge much about a country from small differences in emigration rates, but if one country has net immigration and the other has net emigration it’s a pretty good indication of which country is the better place. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/48 "2015-04-23T02:48:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I don’t think you can judge much about a country from small differences in emigration rates, but if one country has net immigration and the other has net emigration it’s a pretty good indication of which country is the better place. Sure. Not sure how that applies here usefuly though. In Cuba’s neighborhood you basically have some very wealthy people immigrating to enjoy sun, low taxes and cheap labour then you have a bunch of poor people emigrating to escape poverty. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/49 "2015-04-23T03:03:25Z")
Small island nations in particular appear to fare particularly badly in terms of [net migration](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2112rank.html). The bottom 20 (small island nations bolded): **Tuvalu** Republic of the Congo **Guam** Lesotho **Virgin Islands** El Salvador **Saint Pierre and Miquelon** **Sao Tome and Principe** **Puerto Rico** Somalia **Saint Vincent and the Grenadines** Guyana Moldova **Samoa** **Maldives** **Nauru** **Tonga** **Federated States of Micronesia** \*\*American Samoa \*\* Syria Only 24% of nations are islands. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/50 "2015-04-23T03:12:36Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Small island nations in particular appear to fare particularly badly in terms of [net migration](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2112rank.html). Perhaps they fear global warming is going to eliminate their homelands. And it probably will, in some cases. Of course, hope of earning more money elsewhere is almost certainly a much stronger motive for emigration. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/51 "2015-04-23T03:22:21Z")
And then again, there’s a number of island nations in the _top_ 20, so maybe I have no point: Lebanon Qatar Zimbabwe **British Virgin Islands** Jordan Libya **Cayman Islands** **Singapore** **Bahrain** United Arab Emirates **Anguilla** **Turks and Caicos Cyprus Aruba** San Marino Luxembourg Norway Spain **Isle of Man** ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/52 "2015-04-23T13:06:34Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I don’t think you can judge much about a country from small differences in emigration rates, but if one country has net immigration and the other has net emigration it’s a pretty good indication of which country is the better place. Yes and no. I would expect the very poorest countries to have pretty low migration rates in normal times. Very poor people are often too downtrodden or uneducated to realize how bad their conditions are, and too uneducated and malnourished to make a productive worker in a richer country. For example, India has huge differences in development between states (it’s highest state HDI is equivalent to Russia, it’s lowest to Burundi). emigrants tend to come disproportionately from the most advanced states, not the least. likewise, France is not full of Malian and Nigerois immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/53 "2015-04-23T14:19:49Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Cuba no longer has a general ban on emigration, as of two years ago. > > [http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2013-01/15/c\_132103920.htm](http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2013-01/15/c_132103920.htm) IF you can afford it (from your cite): > [@](#): > > “Anyone who has the ability to travel can do it now because there are no limitations as long as you have a passport and a visa,” said Mireya Moran, a Cuba citizen. > > Scrapping the exit visa and letter of invitation also lifts financial burdens for many Cubans, since the first costs 150 Cuban convertible pesos (170 U.S. dollars) and the latter, 120 convertible pesos (150 dollars). That’s $290 where the average monthly wage is $20. And, of course: > [@](#): > > The government still retains the authority to restrict travel for reasons of national security or for those deemed “vital,” a measure designed to prevent a brain drain. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/54 "2015-04-23T14:26:18Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > …For example, India has huge differences in development between states (it’s highest state HDI is equivalent to Russia, it’s lowest to Burundi). emigrants tend to come disproportionately from the most advanced states, not the least… By contrast, most of the Italian immigration to the US in the late 19th and early 20th century was disproportionately from Sicily and southern Italy in general, which were economically depressed at that time. This is why “Italian-American” pop culture is disproportionately Sicilian and southern-Italian in origin. E.g. pizza, putting oregano on everything, rumors of mob connections, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/55 "2015-04-23T14:29:12Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > _Forbes_ magazine clearly has some difficulty distinguishing between “personal wealth” and “state property, administered by the Cuban Government”. Right - just like the Sultan of Dubai is administering his oil wells. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/56 "2015-04-23T14:52:05Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > And then again, there’s a number of island nations in the _top_ 20, so maybe I have no point: > > Lebanon > Qatar > Zimbabwe > **British Virgin Islands** > Jordan > Libya > **Cayman Islands** > **Singapore** > **Bahrain** > United Arab Emirates > **Anguilla** > **Turks and Caicos > Cyprus > Aruba** > San Marino > Luxembourg > Norway > Spain > **Isle of Man** I spot a few tax havens in that list (e.g. Caymans, Luxembourg, Isle of Man), so money is still a factor. “Spain” is probably just all the British retirees moving to where it’s warm and sunny - it’s basically the UK version of Florida. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/57 "2015-04-23T15:03:55Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > If emigration from Cuba reflects how terrible Cuban communism is, then the fact that 45% of Jamaicans have left should indicate that capitalist democracy is even worse. It’s not the emigration rate that is a reflection on Cuban communism; it’s the restrictions on emigration that the Cuban government put on their citizens that is terrible. It was contrary to international law (the International Convention on Civil and Political Rights), and clearly indicated that the state was more important than the citizens. > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I don’t support the emigration ban that existed before then, but it’s somewhat understandable why they did it: most of Cuba’s neighbours have seen a massive exodus of people, largely the smartest and most educated ones, to the west. Something like 45% of Jamaicans live outside Jamaica, for example, and for some other Caribbean countries it’s over 50%. So what? Free individuals get to decide for themselves where they want to live. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/58 "2015-04-23T16:01:24Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > It’s not the emigration rate that is a reflection on Cuban communism; it’s the restrictions on emigration that the Cuban government put on their citizens that is terrible. It was contrary to international law (the International Convention on Civil and Political Rights), and clearly indicated that the state was more important than the citizens. > > So what? Free individuals get to decide for themselves where they want to live. Well I guess Castro wanted doctors more than he wanted a free country. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/59 "2015-04-23T16:10:31Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Well I guess Castro wanted doctors more than he wanted a free country. Right, just like South Carolina planters in 1845 wanted fieldhands more than they wanted a free country. Exactly like that, in fact. Still “not defending Castro?” ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237/60 "2015-04-23T16:17:43Z")
I stated a pretty obvious point. You realize I am a different poster than the person you called a defender before, right? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-cuba-forbid-emigration/718237.md?page=4)