# Why does England compete as a separate entity in the World Cup instead of a UK team? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 12, 2010, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900 "2010-06-12T08:05:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/21 "2010-06-12T18:05:47Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > Are there any other countries which play international competitions (for whichever sport) differently to their actual political makeup? The Irish rugby team represents the whole island (Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland). ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/22 "2010-06-12T18:17:39Z")
England, Scotland, Wales, & Northern Ireland also compete seperately in the Commonwealth Games. Canada has three seperate teams in the Jeux de la Francophonie; Canada, Quebec, & New Brunswick. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/23 "2010-06-12T18:39:52Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Letting the Canadian hockey teams win at the Olympics was a nice touch. Yeah and they usually let us win world curling championships. Actually the Scots and Norwegians are generally the main opposition. Incidentally, the Brits also, in principle, compete as four separate teams for curling (in practice, only Scotland makes the tournament) but there was a UK team (also entirely Scottish) for the Olympics. My guess is that the individual sports federations each make their own rules for the world championship, while the IOC makes them for the Olympics. The fact that soccer in the UK is essentially English and curling almost entirely Scottish illustrates that they really are separate countries that share a government. Nothing like that happens in the US. You don’t see different regions specializing in baseball, football, and basketball. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/24 "2010-06-12T19:56:25Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Puerto Rico has their own team at the Olympics even though they are part of the US Different criterion. When IOC organized, they decided that nonindependent colonies or dependencies of sovereign nations could be recognized as distinct olympic teams (UK and US go along; France doesn’t). Similarly HongKong had their own team as a Brit colony and were allowed to keep it when they became a territory of China. Meanwhile Taiwan plays as “Chinese Taipei” and not as either Taiwan or Republic of China. In the end, sports associations are private entities, they admit who they see fit. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/25 "2010-06-12T20:08:52Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > The fact that soccer in the UK is essentially English This isn’t true at all, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/26 "2010-06-12T21:38:10Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > curling almost entirely Scottish You know, for the longest time I was confused as to how the United Kingdom had become a power in world curling, until during the Vancouver games it finally dawned on me that the team was from _Scotland_. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/27 "2010-06-12T21:45:08Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > You know, for the longest time I was confused as to how the United Kingdom had become a power in world curling, until during the Vancouver games it finally dawned on me that the team was from _Scotland_. Och aye. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/28 "2010-06-12T21:54:30Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Nothing like that happens in the US. You don’t see different regions specializing in baseball, football, and basketball. Before I was fortunate enough to become Canadian, I lived in the American South. In my area, Eastern North Caw’lina, there was basketball. Other sports were…stuff people watched when Duke or UNC or NCSU weren’t playing basketball, and maybe they had a broken leg and only got a couple of channels. Hockey didn’t exist, and the Pro hockey teams or even football teams in the Southeast still strikes me as wrong. I understand that football is the only real religion in Texas, so you may catch some further flak over this assertion. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/29 "2010-06-12T22:37:48Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Canada has three seperate teams in the Jeux de la Francophonie; Canada, Quebec, & New Brunswick. I imagine that’s because the federal government and the provincial governments of Quebec and New Brunswick are each participating governments of the Francophonie. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/30 "2010-06-12T23:29:18Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > In the end, sports associations are private entities, they admit who they see fit. That’s one of the two key points, the other is that it’s a matter of history. England, etc., have always been represented separately in the World Cup, so it makes no sense to change things now. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/31 "2010-06-12T23:42:57Z")
Wikipedia [expands on](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_national_football_team) what **merrick** said: > [@](#): > > When the world’s first football association, The Football Association (FA), was formed in 1863, its geographical remit was not clear: there was no specification of whether it covered just England, the entire UK or even the entire world. The question was answered when the Scottish Football Association (SFA) was founded in 1873. The third national football association, the Football Association of Wales was founded in 1876 and a fourth, the Irish Football Association, (IFA), was founded in 1880. > Football therefore developed with separate associations and national teams for each of the countries of the United Kingdom and no ‘United Kingdom football association’ was ever formed. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/32 "2010-06-12T23:45:29Z")
Well, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all separate entities anyway (but make up a singular one), so it makes absolute sense for them to compete separately. This is a completely different political situation to Germany’s states. Scotland for example his it’s own government, school system, and law system specific to their country. There is a reason why the SNP exists. ---
**Author:** ![Drew\_Kit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@Drew\_Kit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drew_Kit)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/33 "2010-06-13T00:00:54Z")
> [@charlie145](#): > > You can watch that team, they are playing USA shortly 😉 > I honestly don’t think any Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish players would get into the starting 11 for England. Judging from the game earlier it looks like our goalkeeper would. Even one of our retired forwards in goal would inspire more confidence than Robert Green. In Scotland if you say someone that they are being a wee bit English, it means that they are overly competitive, overly confident, overly aggressive. So non-UK Dopers should know the background to the English attitude. The first football club was started in Edinburgh in 1824 and it was called “The Football Club”, because they were the only club and so didn’t require a more unique identifier. By 1872 we’d taught enough Englishmen to play that Glasgow hosted the first international match, a scoreless draw. Those first internationals led to the World Cup competition. England even won that in 1966, a fact that is repeated endlessly up and down Scotland thanks to the London-centric BBC. In 1967 Scotland demolished the world champions in a dazzling display of footballing superiority that was self-described as ‘takin’ the pish’, and that humiliation still troubles them. Even more annoying for England is that Scotland has for a long time ranked number one in the Unofficial World Championships, England is number two. > **[Unofficial Football World Championships](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unofficial_Football_World_Championships)** > > The Unofficial Football World Championships (UFWC) is an informal way of calculating the world's best international association football team, using a knock-out title system similar to that used in professional boxing. The UFWC was formalized by contributors to the Rec.Sport.Soccer Statistics Foundation (RSSSF) in 2002 and published by English journalist Paul Brown in a 2003 FourFourTwo article. Brown created a web page for the UFWC, and both this and the RSSSF tracked the progression of The ti... ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/34 "2010-06-13T15:24:19Z")
> [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](#): > > Well, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all separate entities anyway (but make up a singular one), so it makes absolute sense for them to compete separately. This is a completely different political situation to Germany’s states. Scotland for example his it’s own government, school system, and law system specific to their country. There is a reason why the SNP exists. I’m not sure I understand your point. I’m quite certain that German states also have their own government (state, but they also recognize the federal government), school system, and laws (in addition to federal laws). That’s how it works in Canada and the US, anyway, and I’d assume in most of the world’s federal states. I’d agree with **njtt** that the constituent states in a real federation actually have more autonomy than the constituent countries of the UK. So you’re right that it’s a different situation, but in the sense that German states are more distinct from each other, legally and politically speaking, that the countries in the UK. I suppose the real reason is that UK countries have existed as separate entities for centuries before the UK was created, so they have their own history and culture, including their own football teams. The current German states were created in 1949 in a push to eliminate the state of Prussia, so other than, say, Bavaria and a few others, their existence as separate entities is more recent. The US and Canada also have several states/provinces that were created in the late 19th or early 20th century and populated by settlers from other places. ---
**Author:** ![boilercake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@boilercake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boilercake)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/35 "2010-06-13T18:44:13Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Before I was fortunate enough to become Canadian Canada, USA’s hat. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/36 "2010-06-13T18:57:48Z")
Other examples; In cricket its the England and Wales Cricket team, though to be honest it IS actually the UK team, if a Scot or Irishman is good enough, he’ll go play for England, Jardine, Denness, Morgan and Joyce for instance. In addition during the era of the Colonies, British India competed at the Olympics on its own, but aftre 1906 the Government of India was a seperate entity from the UK government. And finally from the 80’s and 90’s, the criteria for playing for the Irish Republic was i) being able to recognise a goalkeeper from a forward and ii) having read some Irish literature at some time. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/37 "2010-06-13T19:32:06Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > And finally from the 80’s and 90’s, the criteria for playing for the Irish Republic was i) being able to recognise a goalkeeper from a forward and ii) having read some Irish literature at some time. I don’t think the ability to read was one of the criteria. That surely would have ruled out some of their players. But certainly, the idea that members of the Ireland team should actually be, you know, Irish was quietly dropped some time in the 1980s. Example: Tony Cascarino, who is actually less Irish than me, or for that matter anybody. Let’s face it, Mahatma Gandhi was more Irish than Tony Cascarino. And rather fond of a pint of Guinness, I hear. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/38 "2010-06-13T19:32:28Z")
> [@merrick](#): > > North and South Korea fielded a united team at the last Olympics :eek: THAT surprises me. What’s next? Chinese players joining the Tibetan Fightin’ Monks? An India/Pakistan team? Israelis inviting Palestinians to join together for the World Cup? A China and Taiwan Unified team? Medicis joining the Vatican Cardinals? The Jets and the Sharks? Vulcans and Romulans? An Atreides/Harkonnen team? Capulets being asked to join Montague United? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/39 "2010-06-13T20:38:53Z")
> [@Drew\_Kit](#): > > In Scotland if you say someone that they are being a wee bit English, it means that they are overly competitive, overly confident, overly aggressive. Eh? I’ve never heard anyone say that. Where do you stay? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900/40 "2010-06-13T20:46:21Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > So you’re right that it’s a different situation, but in the sense that German states are more distinct from each other, legally and politically speaking, that the countries in the UK. That’s a fairly contentious point, care to elaborate? Scotland has had a separate legal, religious, educational and in many ways political system for centuries before the unified German state. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-england-compete-as-a-separate-entity-in-the-world-cup-instead-of-a-uk-team/542900.md?page=3)