# Why does everyone love Joss Whedon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 29, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844 "2010-01-29T02:54:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![anamnesis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@anamnesis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anamnesis)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/61 "2010-01-29T20:30:15Z")
At all the cons. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Minnie\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Minnie\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minnie_Luna)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/62 "2010-01-29T20:37:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Sure, maybe the dialog reflects the fan culture and he’s all in tune with them, but I feel like that lessens the seriousness and depth of what could be better material if the themes were taken more seriously. It all serves as a barrier to me really getting engrossed in his stories or characters, even when I genuinely like the characters or the plot. Sorry fans. He started the witty banter before he had a fan base, it’s just part of his writing style. He wrote for _Roseanne_ prior to going out on his own. The dialogue on that show was full of witty banter that I don’t think denigrated the message or theme of the show (except after Dan left, I couldn’t watch that show without John Goodman). Personally, I think the banter adds to the thematic elements of the show. Life is not all about puppy dogs and milkshakes, nor is it all about death and monsters. The banter served to lighten the otherwise somber mood of the themes his shows dealt with. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/63 "2010-01-29T20:41:51Z")
> [@anamnesis](#): > > It’s like if you don’t get it, it’s because you’re not part of the club that you didn’t know you needed to be in to watch his stuff in the first place, There’s some truth to this- once you’re invested enough in a Whedon universe, you may be able to appreciate it, but it takes some doing to get so invested. My girlfriend had to try _Firefly_ several times to get to a place where she liked it, but she loves it now. ---
**Author:** ![ToeJam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dfb087/32.png) [@ToeJam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ToeJam)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/64 "2010-01-29T21:15:41Z")
He did Alien Resurrection? I loved that movie as a kid! 😃 Made it alot less scarier for me, and I was able to enjoy the series alot more. Only Aliens 2 can top that one in the 4 alien movies for watchability! ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/65 "2010-01-29T21:37:09Z")
> [@anamnesis](#): > > I’m going to try to be nice… If you had written this exact same thing about Kevin Smith’s work, I’d agree completely. I’m not sure why Whedon’s forced self-referential cleverness resonates with me, while Smith’s irritates. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/66 "2010-01-29T21:57:41Z")
> [@melodyharmonius](#): > > or the fact that after Sarah Michelle Gellar starred in the Scooby movie, the BtVS series started having Scooby references. The first Scooby Gang reference on Buffy happened five years before the Scooby-Doo movie. > [@Odesio](#): > > I think I’m one of the few Buffy fans who didn’t think “The Body” was all that and a bag of chips. Nah, I’m not too fond of it either and I know there are others. It’s a good episode sure, but it’s not even in the top 20. And put me down as someone who actually will defend **Alien Resurrection**. I thought **Alien 3** was a complete piece of shit and Resurrection brought the fun back to the series. It wasn’t anywhere near as good as **Aliens** or **Alien** , but it was an enjoyable movie and Ron Perlman being a badass can never be a bad thing. Plus, to hear Whedon tell it, his script didn’t exactly make it to the screen intact. Maybe you say I’m making excuses, but Fincher says the same thing about Alien 3. I don’t think Fox knew how to continue the series after Aliens, just that they wanted to because it was a moneymaker. So out came the meddling executives. ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/67 "2010-01-29T22:53:13Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > I think **Dollhouse** , however, is his worst work to date. A poster in another thread described it as looking uncomfortably deep into Joss’ sexual fantasies, and I agree. Again (and I ask this in all sincerity, no snark intended): did you watch the end of season 1/ all of season 2? Because “Dollhouse” takes a _huge_ leap in quality once you get past the stand-alone, straightforward “engagement” episodes the network mandated. And any suspicion that Joss is just doing the fetishistic equivalent airing his dirty laundry is completely abated. It’s very clear that he gets that the premise of his show is morally murky, at best, and leaning more in the direction of “completely sick.” As with his other shows, “Dollhouse” at its best is about exploring (and considering the ramifications of) darkness, _not_ wallowing in it. The scene where Topher comes face to face with his own amorality is one of the best things Joss has ever done. Hell, I’ll come out and say it: the “Dollhouse” arc from “Belle Chose” to “The Attic” is equal to anything from “Buffy” or “Firefly.” Or, if you’re not a Whedon fan, “The West Wing” or “Battlestar Galactica.” ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/68 "2010-01-29T23:03:59Z")
I’ve seen all of _Buffy_ (and the movie, though not all the comics), a little of early\* Angel\*, none of Firefly/Serenity, & all of _Dollhouse_ except the “Epitaph” episodes (the second of which airs tonight). It’s really hard to count movies where he was merely “a” writer. It’s tough talking about Joss through his TV shows because any show has a team of writers, & so it’s really about Jane Espenson & Marti Noxon & so on. I do think that _Buffy_ went downhill & kind of badfic after Joss left to do _Angel_ & Marti was showrunner. Too many random useless appearances by villains that remained awkwardly unresolved (I think Glory’s arc in season 5 plays really lamely once you know the end). But yeah, there’s a tone. A Joss tone. Really a few tones from light to dark. It can suck being a Whedon fan because of how he gets you to like characters & then kills them. (Or worse; Amy is pretty much straight heavy in the comic book, which I find disappointing.) One of the closest voices to his thematically is webcartoonist John Allison of _Bobbins_/_Scary Go Round_/_Bad Machinery_. And I love Dollhouse. It’s a freaky show with layers of bad. Not white hats & black hats so much as deep charcoal gray versus shiny pitch versus starling’s-wing versus Saruman’s-robe rainbows… ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/69 "2010-01-30T00:16:35Z")
It does feel like Whedon fans have excuses for everything bad that has Joss Whedon’s name on it. All his movies save “Serenity” were heavily tampered with, when Buffy became bad he wasn’t its show runner, and when Firefly and Dollhouse were bad it was because the network wanted more standalone thriller episodes. A few Whedon dissenters in this thread have even displayed a weird resentment of Whedon fans because of the attitude that Whedon can do no wrong. As a Whedon fan, however, I feel that the “Whedon can do no wrong” attitude is entirely justified at the moment. The only bad TV I can blame Whedon for is the first season of Buffy, and that gets a pass because he was just starting out as a show runner. When Dollhouse aired, Whedon pretty much admitted that the first five episodes weren’t going to be good because FOX had him implement their ideas into the show. He said it was going to start getting better from episode six, which was when FOX realized they were wrong and gave Whedon his creative control back. And the show got better since episode six. That’s why I can’t blame Whedon for the various shortcomings he has been unfairly associated with. So far nothing that Whedon has claimed creative ownership of has been bad. And he doesn’t just claim ownership after the fact, he tells fans before something goes on the air whether it’s his complete vision or not. We knew he was stepping down from the helm of BTVS before season’s 6 and 7, and we knew he didn’t have full creative control over the first five episodes of Dollhouse before they aired. In short, the [huge solid gold statue of Joss Whedon](http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/2/27/) in my front yard isn’t coming down any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/70 "2010-01-30T00:17:45Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > As with his other shows, “Dollhouse” at its best is about exploring (and considering the ramifications of) darkness, _not_ wallowing in it. The scene where Topher comes face to face with his own amorality is one of the best things Joss has ever done. The last episode I watched was the one where Echo’s magical mystical mommy powers thwarted the mind wipe. After that I just couldn’t go on with the show. ---
**Author:** ![Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speak_to_me_Maddie)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/71 "2010-01-30T00:38:59Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > I’m going to guess you haven’t seen much of Dollhouse’s second season. I don’t know how anyone can see what happened in the arc from “Belle Chose” to “The Attic” and somehow think that Whedon is _condoning_ the things that he and his writers put the Actives through. It’s sort of like saying that Buffy is about the evil of pre-marital sex based on the events of season 2, or that Angel is about a vampire becoming human - it’s an oversimplistic reading of themes based on the plot and nothing else. No I haven’t seen the second season, and that is kinda the point. Don’t ask me to finish the seven course meal if the first few bites are disgusting. In response to your second point, you are confusing theme with content. Most horror films have the bad guy vanquished at the end, but that doesn’t mean the audience isn’t supposed to revel in the gore and horror of his deeds. Likewise, most of those 80’s tit-flicks ended with the stud-muffin realizing his promiscuity wasn’t fulfilling, but the audience watched it for the T and A. In the few episodes of Dollhouse I watched the show focused entirely upon the prurient aspects of the setup. It was carefully and lovingly done, from the co-ed shower scenes to the dominatrix hooker scenes to the zoned out sex zombie scenes. It was like watching a TV censored porno. Beyond the mere sexual content there was the specific sexual theme of the willing sex slave, the mindless hot body stripped of free-will and personality, a trope that appears in Wheadon’s other shows with noticeable regularity. I won’t argue with you about the second season. Maybe it did contain great story lines and tackle important philosophical questions, Whedon is certainly capable of it. But the content was unmistakably pornographic. Theme and/or moral can overtly contradict content, but that doesn’t excuse or dismiss the focus. ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/72 "2010-01-30T01:06:20Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > The last episode I watched was the one where Echo’s magical mystical mommy powers thwarted the mind wipe. After that I just couldn’t go on with the show. Ah… that’s literally one episode before it starts getting seriously awesome. > [@](#): > > No I haven’t seen the second season, and that is kinda the point. Don’t ask me to finish the seven course meal if the first few bites are disgusting. Fair enough. Although in my experience, every show needs half a dozen episode to find its footing. If I’m at all interested in a show, I’ll generally give it at least a full season before I give up on it entirely. > [@](#): > > In response to your second point, you are confusing theme with content. Most horror films have the bad guy vanquished at the end, but that doesn’t mean the audience isn’t supposed to revel in the gore and horror of his deeds. Likewise, most of those 80’s tit-flicks ended with the stud-muffin realizing his promiscuity wasn’t fulfilling, but the audience watched it for the T and A. In the few episodes of Dollhouse I watched the show focused entirely upon the prurient aspects of the setup. It was carefully and lovingly done, from the co-ed shower scenes to the dominatrix hooker scenes to the zoned out sex zombie scenes. It was like watching a TV censored porno. Beyond the mere sexual content there was the specific sexual theme of the willing sex slave, the mindless hot body stripped of free-will and personality, a trope that appears in Wheadon’s other shows with noticeable regularity. I won’t argue with you about the second season. Maybe it did contain great story lines and tackle important philosophical questions, Whedon is certainly capable of it. But the content was unmistakably pornographic. Theme and/or moral can overtly contradict content, but that doesn’t excuse or dismiss the focus. Content doesn’t inform theme? Whedon is as knowledgeable as they come about filmmaking shorthand (listen to his commentaries on “The Body” or “Objects in Space” if you don’t believe me), and he’s _famous_ (or infamous, depending on POV) for taking advantage of audience expectations for how a given scene is “supposed to go” based on the way it’s shot. Here’s just one example ( **WARNING: minor spoilers ahead** ). In the pilot of “Firefly”… [spoiler]…Whedon includes a shot of a recently-shot Kaylee’s hand falling limply to one side. The dialogue in the scene involves the protagonist, Mal, setting up another character, Simon, to believe that she’s dead, but the limp hand bit isn’t really part of Mal’s ploy - it’s just to communicate her deadness to the\* audience.\* The payoff comes shortly after when it turns out the whole thing was a cruel (albeit hilarious) joke played at Simon’s expense. _Everyone who’s ever seen a movie or TV show_ knows that the hand-falling-limply shot means that a character is dead. And Whedon is explicitly using it to sell that idea to the audience, so that the revelation that she’s NOT dead works later. I’ve seen people complain that this is some sort of cop-out. But it’s not - after all, a moment’s critical thought should bring the realization that hands falling to one side happen all the time when one is falling asleep (which is what Kaylee was actually doing). The only reason the audience immediately jumps to “she’s dead” is that we’re so conditioned from years of cinematic shorthand that we _don’t_ think about it. And so, just as decades of filmmakers have used that shot to communicate the message “he’s dead,” Whedon uses that shot to subvert the audience’s expectations, in service to that most important attribute of successful comedy: surprise.[/spoiler] In other words, the over-the-top titillation was designed to provoke exactly the reaction of disgust you felt. It’s no different from the shots of Faith dancing in the club on “Angel” - that was equally sexual, but I’ve never seen anyone claim that it was “pornographic.” In both cases, Whedon is using our preconceived notions of sexual imagery to tell us something about the characters and their situation. When we see Echo kickin’ it on the dance floor in a skimpy dress, we’re not _supposed_ to think, “Oh wow, Eliza Dushku is so effing hot.” It’s intended to push towards a realization that what the Dollhouse does is nothing more than human slavery in the guise of wish fulfillment. The overarching plot arc of “Dollhouse” bears this out - for God’s sake, the driving motivation for the two\* main characters\* is rebellion against the Dollhouse and its parent company! ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/73 "2010-01-30T01:18:53Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > Again … No, I watched all of Season 1 and didn’t watch further. I’m willing to give season 2 a watch since you and others are giving good press. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/74 "2010-01-30T01:58:23Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > There’s some truth to this- once you’re invested enough in a Whedon universe, you may be able to appreciate it, but it takes some doing to get so invested. My girlfriend had to try _Firefly_ several times to get to a place where she liked it, but she loves it now. Maybe some truth, but not very much, I think. A great number of people who saw Firefly were instantly hooked on it. I certainly was. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/75 "2010-01-30T04:56:14Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Maybe some truth, but not very much, I think. A great number of people who saw Firefly were instantly hooked on it. I certainly was. _Firefly_ isn’t a great example. The first season of _Buffy_ is really bad; I wouldn’t have slogged through it if I didn’t know that so many other Whedonites liked it so much. That first season is trite, predictable, and so teenagery I almost gave up. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/76 "2010-01-30T05:26:59Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > Ah… that’s literally one episode before it starts getting seriously awesome. There were other things that annoyed me about the show. Eliza Dushku was one of them because I don’t think she’s a very good actress. The supporting characters were a lot more believable when they had new imprints whereas Dushku was always Dushku. Second, and this will sound weird since we’re talking about a Whedon production, my suspension of disbelief was broken when the waif-like Echo was able to take on Ballard in hand to hand combat. I could buy Buffy and Faith taking on beings larger than themselves because they had magical powers. When watching science-fiction, and, yes, I consider Dollhouse to be science fiction, we all suspend our disbelief in order to get along with the story. There’s only so much suspension I can do and at the point where Echo isn’t getting her ass handed to her by Ballard is the point where the series became a cartoon. I feel the same way about River Tam from Serenity. Then again, maybe I just grew weary of the hot chick kicking ass thing that Whedon seems to love. Hopefully nobody accuses me of being sexist. I also got sick of the 80s action movie star at some point. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Pigs\_in\_Space](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9d8465/32.png) [@Pigs\_in\_Space](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pigs_in_Space)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/77 "2010-01-30T06:17:02Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > No, I watched all of Season 1 and didn’t watch further. I’m willing to give season 2 a watch since you and others are giving good press. 🙂 Fair warning, the first 2 episodes aren’t great, but the third on are excellent. I like Whedon because there’s nothing else quite like it. Great lines, great character growth, mood whiplash like no one else can do. There’s an episode of Dollhouse about a serial killer that is terrifying and laugh out loud funny at the same time. Either that sounds good to you, or it doesn’t. The following is one of my favorite quotes, because it’s funny, but it also says so much about the two characters. Both characters go on to evolve in ways that you would never guess, but make perfect sense while it is happening. Wesley Wyndam-Pryce: I’m a rogue demon hunter, now. Cordelia: Wow. What’s a rogue demon? And I love a [strong female character](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs). One more quote: Jayne Cobb: Wha - are you-are you sayin’ she’s a witch? Hoban ‘Wash’ Washburne: Yes, Jayne. She’s a witch. She has had congress with the Beast. Jayne Cobb: She’s in Congress? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/78 "2010-01-30T06:18:01Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > _Firefly_ isn’t a great example. The first season of _Buffy_ is really bad; I wouldn’t have slogged through it if I didn’t know that so many other Whedonites liked it so much. That first season is trite, predictable, and so teenagery I almost gave up. True, but I don’t know if that’s a Joss thing. It’s pretty common for shows to not really find their groove until the second season or so. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/79 "2010-01-30T09:15:12Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > It does feel like Whedon fans have excuses for everything bad that has Joss Whedon’s name on it. All his movies save “Serenity” were heavily tampered with, when Buffy became bad he wasn’t its show runner, and when Firefly and Dollhouse were bad it was because the network wanted more standalone thriller episodes. But that’s the thing. Whedon has only done one movie (Serenity) and people that think he’s overhyped keep pointing to the Buffy and Alien Resurrection as his failures when the writer is never blamed (or given credit for that matter) on a movie that someone else directed. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/80 "2010-01-30T09:41:12Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > But that’s the thing. Whedon has only done one movie (Serenity) and people that think he’s overhyped keep pointing to the Buffy and Alien Resurrection as his failures when the writer is never blamed (or given credit for that matter) on a movie that someone else directed. I don’t know that that’s true. Larry Gelbart is given a huge amount of credit for M_A_S\*H. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844.md?page=5)