# Why does everyone love Joss Whedon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 29, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844 "2010-01-29T02:54:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/81 "2010-01-30T09:47:19Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > I don’t know that that’s true. Larry Gelbart is given a huge amount of credit for M_A_S\*H. Which was a TV show, where the head writer/showrunner/creator wields all (or at least most) of the power. Whedon’s failures with the Buffy movie and Alien 4 were movies, where the writer is seen as almost a nuisance by the director/producers, the people who wield all the power in film. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/82 "2010-01-30T11:15:01Z")
> [@Speak\_to\_me\_Maddie](#): > > Beyond the mere sexual content there was the specific sexual theme of the willing sex slave, the mindless hot body stripped of free-will and personality, a trope that appears in Wheadon’s other shows with noticeable regularity. Can you give some examples from other shows? I can certainly see where you’re coming from in _Dollhouse_ - although I very much disagree with your interpretation of Whedon’s intent, I can at least see the material you’re using to arrive at that conclusion. With his other shows, I can’t really think of any examples of that trope. The closest I can come up with is the episode of _Buffy_ that introduced Warren as a geek who had built himself a sex-bot, then abandoned it when he met a real girl. I have trouble imagining how anyone could view that episode and come away with the idea that the point of it was to titillate, though. Really, it came across more as a polemic against a particular stereotype of male lust. I’m sure that, out of twelve seasons of two TV shows, I’m forgetting some other episodes that, with some amount of manhandling, could fit into your description, but it seems to be quite a stretch to say that it appears with “noticeable regularity.” ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/83 "2010-01-30T13:18:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Can you give some examples from other shows? I can certainly see where you’re coming from in _Dollhouse_ - although I very much disagree with your interpretation of Whedon’s intent, I can at least see the material you’re using to arrive at that conclusion. With his other shows, I can’t really think of any examples of that trope. The closest I can come up with is the episode of _Buffy_ that introduced Warren as a geek who had built himself a sex-bot, then abandoned it when he met a real girl. I have trouble imagining how anyone could view that episode and come away with the idea that the point of it was to titillate, though. Really, it came across more as a polemic against a particular stereotype of male lust. I’m sure that, out of twelve seasons of two TV shows, I’m forgetting some other episodes that, with some amount of manhandling, could fit into your description, but it seems to be quite a stretch to say that it appears with “noticeable regularity.” Hmm, I can kinda see it. Spike also had the Buffybot for a while, and then there were the Companions on Firefly - they weren’t stripped of free will and personality, but they were willing sex slaves. It came up in Angel briefly too, in the episode She, with those women from the alternate dimension who were literally turned into mindless sex slaves - though, TBF, we only saw them as fighters trying to escape that slavery, with no time spent on any mindless sex-slave titillation. However, the women always break away, it’s never condoned and there genuinely are lots of very strong female characters in his stories (not always physically strong, either), so I can forgive that weirdness. Whedon’s not perfect. He’s just much, much better than most and some episodes of his shows, especially episodes where he was the writer, pretty much are perfect. Dollhouse is such a shame. Lots of people are going to miss the brilliance of season 2 because of the crap of season 1. I only slogged on with the first season because my GF wanted to watch it. But the second season, WOW. It’s of a completely different quality. I’d recommend that people watch season 2 first, or maybe start from Epitapth One (which blew my mind away, though that was partly in comparison to season 1). ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/84 "2010-01-30T16:31:13Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > Hmm, I can kinda see it. Spike also had the Buffybot for a while, and then there were the Companions on Firefly - they weren’t stripped of free will and personality, but they were willing sex slaves. Say what? Companions were never slaves of any sort. They were _very_ high status folk following a highly trained and admired profession. Mal wanted Inara aboard **Serenity** for just that reason. She would allow them access to areas and places and contacts they otherwise could never hope of reaching. Sounds like _someone_ is bringing their own baggage to their analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/85 "2010-01-30T16:45:08Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Say what? Companions were never slaves of any sort. They were _very_ high status folk following a highly trained and admired profession. Mal wanted Inara aboard **Serenity** for just that reason. She would allow them access to areas and places and contacts they otherwise could never hope of reaching. > > Sounds like _someone_ is bringing their own baggage to their analysis. It might be a case of confusing inclusion with advocacy. One of Whedon’s defining attributes is that he puts lots of things he completely disagrees with into his shows, as a means for examining the implications of those things. For example, Mal is politically libertarian, whereas Whedon himself is a big-D Democrat along the lines of Sorkin. Similarly, the fact that Whedon includes space geishas in his scifi universe doesn’t imply some inner desire for real geishas, any more than the inclusion of sexy androids in “Battlestar Galactica” implies some secret desire by Ron Moore for RealDolls. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/86 "2010-01-30T17:05:40Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > I thought **Alien 3** was a complete piece of shit and Resurrection brought the fun back to the series. Seconded. I’m fairly sure Joss wouldn’t have killed off Newt, for instance (I kinda see Winona Ryder’s Call as a grown-up artificial Newt substitute) > [@appleciders](#): > > _Firefly_ isn’t a great example. The first season of _Buffy_ is really bad; I wouldn’t have slogged through it if I didn’t know that so many other Whedonites liked it so much. That first season is trite, predictable, and so teenagery I almost gave up. _De Gustibus_. I was hooked from the beginning. > [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > But that’s the thing. Whedon has only done one movie (Serenity) and people that think he’s overhyped keep pointing to the Buffy and Alien Resurrection as his failures when the writer is never blamed (or given credit for that matter) on a movie that someone else directed. Yeah - and even when he is ripped for his writing work, they always forget to credit him for his _successes_, like _Toy Story_ or (the way underrated, imo) _Titan A.E._ ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/87 "2010-01-30T18:33:34Z")
> [@anamnesis](#): > > Apologies to those who take umbrage that I don’t “get it”, but I don’t know what there is to “get” because his stuff is rarely as clever in my mind as it’s hyped up to be in the minds of others. I’ve sampled all the flavors of his writing and will continue to do so, but I can’t help feeling as though a pair of rose-colored glasses are required for viewing his stuff as much as polarized lenses are required for viewing 3D movies. It feels like he’s always trying to appeal to fans with self-referential material and that nothing can really be taken too seriously, that he’s reaching for punchlines, or making up silly words, etc. And I have a hard time getting past that. And despite how creative and brilliant everyone says his dialog is, I find a lot of his ostensibly fleshed-out characters extremely cliche, one-dimensional and predictable. Yeah, I get all his jokes and banter, mostly because they’re not very subtle and are extremely easy to get, so they aren’t challenging to me as a viewer. And he’s always doing it, trying to be witty and funny and clever, and it’s tiresome when all the fans tell me I should be laughing at it when I’m not. Sure, maybe the dialog reflects the fan culture and he’s all in tune with them, but I feel like that lessens the seriousness and depth of what could be better material if the themes were taken more seriously. It all serves as a barrier to me really getting engrossed in his stories or characters, even when I genuinely like the characters or the plot. Sorry fans. > > I’d like for him to try telling a more mature story without pandering to fans and condescending to the intelligence of viewers who have no investment in his established work. It’s like if you don’t get it, it’s because you’re not part of the club that you didn’t know you needed to be in to watch his stuff in the first place, even though the fans I know all tell me that I want, no, _need_ to be in it. It’s this fan adoration in recent years that has pushed me even further away from taking his work seriously … when you go through the experience of dealing with overzealous fans of anything, trying to have any kind of rational or constructive conversation about the material is futile. And when their idea of convincing me I missed something amounts to re-watching Firefly or Dr. Horrible ad nauseum and listening to them laugh or sing along or parrot lines back, I find it goes from stupid to bizarre, cultish, and boring very quickly. Joss has his moments, but even a blind squirrel finds a few nuts if the timing is right. Those nuts, however, aren’t nearly enough to last me through the winter of my discontent with his work, or with his biggest supporters. I’ve rarely been so tempted to quote a long passage and just write “This”. Your thoughts on Whedon and his fans are pretty much the same as my own. The only part of the above that doesn’t apply to me is “I’ve sampled all the flavors of his writing and will continue to do so”. I’ve been exposed to _some_ of the flavors of his writing and have zero interest in trying more. In fairness to Whedon, I merely dislike the man and his work. What I _hate_ is the Whedon cult. It sure doesn’t help that 1) there’s a supporting character on _Buffy_ who shares my real name, so of course _Buffy_ fans immediately think I want to talk about the show! :rolleyes: and 2) I hang out on here, where any thread on a topic with even the most tangential connection to Joss Whedon or his work will wind up degenerating into a lengthy hijack on the subject. I am sure there are plenty of people who simply enjoy watching _Buffy_, etc., and aren’t at all pushy or obnoxious about it, but they’re unfortunately overshadowed by those who are. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard the Whedon cult say that anyone who doesn’t like _Buffy_ needs to watch every episode in order from the beginning. No, no we don’t. I already know more about Whedon’s work than I ever cared to, and prolonged exposure to more sounds about as fun as Chinese water torture. And frankly, even if watching every episode of _Buffy_ in order were guaranteed to make me love the show then I still wouldn’t do it. If I became a Whedon fan I’d be forced to deal with the irritating cult subset even more often, and the prospect of becoming a cultist myself is too terrible to contemplate. I’d rather skip straight to the Flavor-Aid. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/88 "2010-01-30T18:41:01Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I don’t know how many times I’ve heard the Whedon cult say that anyone who doesn’t like _Buffy_ needs to watch every episode in order from the beginning. No, no we don’t. I already know more about Whedon’s work than I ever cared to, and prolonged exposure to more sounds about as fun as Chinese water torture. That’s because the conversation usually starts like this: “I’ve seen three random episodes from Buffy. In one she was in high school, in one she was in college and in another I think she was a robot or something. Why don’t I think this is the best show ever yet?” Taking tiny pieces of the whole (even watching episodes in order from the same season, not just from the beginning, would help) will leave you completely lost as to how much Buffy is. So when someone is clearly confused, but wants to watch the show, the fans fill in why they’re lost. Come to think of it, this applies to people who get confused by Lost too. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/89 "2010-01-30T19:16:59Z")
The only real answer to this question is to get ahold of some of Whedon’s work and watch it. If you like it, you won’t have to ask the rest of us why, and even if you decide it’s not your thing, you’ll probably at least see some of the good features of it that the rest of us appreciate. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/90 "2010-01-30T19:29:34Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Can you give some examples from other shows? I can certainly see where you’re coming from in _Dollhouse_ - although I very much disagree with your interpretation of Whedon’s intent, I can at least see the material you’re using to arrive at that conclusion. With his other shows, I can’t really think of any examples of that trope. The closest I can come up with is the episode of _Buffy_ that introduced Warren as a geek who had built himself a sex-bot, then abandoned it when he met a real girl. I have trouble imagining how anyone could view that episode and come away with the idea that the point of it was to titillate, though. Really, it came across more as a polemic against a particular stereotype of male lust. I’m sure that, out of twelve seasons of two TV shows, I’m forgetting some other episodes that, with some amount of manhandling, could fit into your description, but it seems to be quite a stretch to say that it appears with “noticeable regularity.” A few months back one blogger launched her theory about Joss Whedon’s sexual hangups. Her opinion, OK. But she’s now got acolytes who can’t be bothered to watch his shows & draw their own conclusions but want to sound intelligent. So they see a thread for Whedon fans & chime in to deposit their oh-so-intellectual opinions. Can’t call it threadshitting because the stuff’s so predigested–sort of like those neat little pellets that rabbits leave behind. I like Joss Whedon because his works amuse me. They bear up to repeated watching & show surprising depth. If somebody doesn’t like his stuff or just thinks they might not like his stuff because there are too many girls & women involved, that is absolutely their right. Let them find something they enjoy & start threads to express their enthusiasm; I won’t try to convert them. Last night’s final episode of _Dollhous_e was excellent but heartbreaking; so many stories deserved fuller development. But I’m not feeling very patient right now. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/91 "2010-01-30T19:44:25Z")
I’ve never quite understood the slavering over his stuff, myself. My husband goes through spells of downloading his old stuff and I’ve seen most of _Firefly_, _Serenity_, about half a season of _Buffy_, and all of _Dollhouse_. _Dollhouse_ was pretty good when they weren’t dealing with Echo, _Buffy_ was pretty meh, and _Firefly_ was just plain stupid. I suppose I could go through and watch more of the old stuff, but why on earth would I want to do that? I don’t need or want to go through extra effort to find stuff that bores the tits off me when I could just turn on my tv and find plenty that would fit that bill. I think a lot of my indifference is that I like self-referential humor, I like it in very small, tightly controlled doses whereas Whedon seems to slather it on with a trowel. It comes across to me as forced and almost clownish and right off-putting. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/92 "2010-01-30T19:46:03Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > And frankly, even if watching every episode of _Buffy_ in order were guaranteed to make me love the show then I still wouldn’t do it. If I became a Whedon fan I’d be forced to deal with the irritating cult subset even more often, and the prospect of becoming a cultist myself is too terrible to contemplate. I’d rather skip straight to the Flavor-Aid. Most of my friends are huge fans of Whedon. I didn’t watch _Firefly_ until shortly before _Serenity_ came out which meant that I was the odd man out at many social gatherings. Almost invariably there would be 20-30 minutes of conversation revolving around the series and all I could do is sit there and shrug my shoulders. Even after I saw the series, which I enjoyed quite a bit, I just didn’t want to talk about it all the time. It was just weird to me how much devotion they had to a series that didn’t even last a whole season. Strangely enough there isn’t a whole lot of the same type of conversation surrounding _Dollhouse._ Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/93 "2010-01-30T20:26:08Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > That’s because the conversation usually starts like this: “I’ve seen three random episodes from Buffy. In one she was in high school, in one she was in college and in another I think she was a robot or something. Why don’t I think this is the best show ever yet?” I’m sure the conversation seems that way to people who can’t grasp that anyone could possibly both dislike _Buffy_ and be uninterested in changing. But I have been on the receiving end of “Well, you just need to watch EVERY EPISODE, IN ORDER!” and I’ve never said anything like that. In my experience, the conversation opens with some reference to _Buffy_ by the other person, with the clear expectation that I will then reveal myself as a _Buffy_ fan and we’ll spend the next few hours talking about _Buffy_. When I say I don’t care for the show I’m asked how many episode I’ve seen. When I say I don’t know the exact number but I’ve seen a few and I didn’t like them, I’m told that I have to watch every single episode in order and then I’ll surely love it. Because I clearly have nothing better to do with my time or money than obtain every episode of a 7 season TV series and watch them all in order. :rolleyes: I wouldn’t do that with a show I _liked_, so I’d have to be some kind of masochist to do so with a show I _dislike_. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/94 "2010-01-30T20:26:43Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Say what? Companions were never slaves of any sort. They were _very_ high status folk following a highly trained and admired profession. Mal wanted Inara aboard **Serenity** for just that reason. She would allow them access to areas and places and contacts they otherwise could never hope of reaching. > > Sounds like _someone_ is bringing their own baggage to their analysis. Yes, the show said that their profession was highly admired. But their profession was selling themselves for sex. They were willing sex slaves. By definition. I’m not sure how you can deny that. I think you might want to throw your juvenile ‘baggage’ accusations at someone else. @Tanbarkie: Miller asked where there were other examples of ‘willing sex slaves’ in Whedon’s work. So I gave some examples. I have spent bloody ages defending Buffy against the kind of idiots that claim it’s misogynist and homophobic on the basis of one event in one episode - my God there are lots of those idiots out there - but this ‘sexbot obsession’ allegation does have at least some basis in reality. I never said he advocated it. In fact, I pointed out that the subjugation of those women is never condoned. It is, perhaps, simply inclusion, but it is a _lot_ of inclusion. It just doesn’t bother me, for the reasons I gave before. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/95 "2010-01-30T20:32:53Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I’m sure the conversation seems that way to people who can’t grasp that anyone could possibly both dislike _Buffy_ and be uninterested in changing. But I have been on the receiving end of “Well, you just need to watch EVERY EPISODE, IN ORDER!” and I’ve never said anything like that. > > In my experience, the conversation opens with some reference to _Buffy_ by the other person, with the clear expectation that I will then reveal myself as a _Buffy_ fan and we’ll spend the next few hours talking about _Buffy_. When I say I don’t care for the show I’m asked how many episode I’ve seen. When I say I don’t know the exact number but I’ve seen a few and I didn’t like them, I’m told that I have to watch every single episode in order and then I’ll surely love it. Because I clearly have nothing better to do with my time or money than obtain every episode of a 7 season TV series and watch them all in order. :rolleyes: I wouldn’t do that with a show I _liked_, so I’d have to be some kind of masochist to do so with a show I _dislike_. What’s odd, though, is that some people - not you personally - will go on and on and on about how terrible Buffy, Firefly and Dollhouse are, with loads of twisted theories about the series, and lots of very strong opinions, and all without watching more than an episode or two. If I’ve only seen an episode or two of something then I’ll say what I thought about those episodes, but no more. If someone tells me that the show improves tons after whatever episode, and I haven’t seen after that episode, then I’ve got no grounds to agree or disagree with them - but that doesn’t stop some people. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/96 "2010-01-30T20:36:05Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I am sure there are plenty of people who simply enjoy watching _Buffy_, etc., and aren’t at all pushy or obnoxious about it, but they’re unfortunately overshadowed by those who are. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard the Whedon cult say that anyone who doesn’t like _Buffy_ needs to watch every episode in order from the beginning. No, no we don’t. I already know more about Whedon’s work than I ever cared to, and prolonged exposure to more sounds about as fun as Chinese water torture. The same can be said for just about any work of art that people like. Personally, if _Arrested Development_ and the works of Tolkein vanished tomorrow, I wouldn’t bat an eye. Ditto a ton of other works. So what? People get enthused about what they like, and they like talking to others about it. You aren’t ever going to be able to change that, so getting your panties in a bunch over it is counter-productive and leads to undue stress. Which leads to premature hair loss, anal leakage and chronic halitosis. 😃 **scifisam** - I suggest you look up the word “slave” in a dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/97 "2010-01-30T20:50:55Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > What’s odd, though, is that some people - not you personally - will go on and on and on about how terrible Buffy, Firefly and Dollhouse are, with loads of twisted theories about the series, and lots of very strong opinions, and all without watching more than an episode or two. He’s very polarizing. As annoying, exasperating, and rabid as Whedonites\* (especially Browncoats\*\*) can be, his detractors often show the same traits. This subset of his critics are just as insistent on showing how much they hate his shows as his fans are at showing how he’s the greatest writer since Shakespeare. It seems to get very personal, and reminds me a lot of the Star Wars vs. Star Trek rivalry, except that that makes more sense to me, since it’s two sci-fi franchises, and we geeks do love our “Who would win in a fight?” hypotheticals. - For those that missed my initial post in this thread, I’m one of his fans \*\* ..and \*Firefly \*is his magnum opus. Still, Browncoats are _ **fucking annoying** _. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/98 "2010-01-30T20:57:59Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > **scifisam** - I suggest you look up the word “slave” in a dictionary. I suggest you read more than one word in a post. ‘Willing sex slaves’ was the phrase I used to describe the companions. Now, the word ‘willing’ seems to go against ‘slave’ too, but it doesn’t because ‘sex slave’ itself is in currency as a phrase that doesn’t depend on the ‘permanent ownership’ aspect of the word ‘slave.’ They were women who sold their bodies and their skills to other people who wanted the primarily for sex. That’s not exactly the same as the actual sexbots that appeared in Buffy or the mindwiped women (and at least one man, that we know of) in Dollhouse, but it’s in the same general area. There _are_ a lot of sexbots of various kinds in Whedon’s work, more than you’d expect, and denying that is like denying that there are a lot of vampires in Buffy. However, acknowledging their existence doesn’t mean you have to, as some people do, leap to the conclusion that Joss Whedon has a fetish for sexbots or that he hates women or that he likes being in control or all the things various people say. He could even be including them so much because he thinks it’s a really good trope to fight against. Who knows? People say that ‘Whedonites’ will defend his shows against any accusation and get personal about it. That’s what you’re doing. It makes the rest of us look bad. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/99 "2010-01-30T21:09:54Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > There _are_ a lot of sexbots of various kinds in Whedon’s work, more than you’d expect, and denying that is like denying that there are a lot of vampires in Buffy. Oh, come now. As I recall, only two vampires actually got into Buffy. (Unless you count the Master and Dracula, both of whom got their teeth – and only their teeth – into Buffy.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844/100 "2010-01-30T21:10:09Z")
> [@scifisam2009](#): > > They were women who sold their bodies and their skills to other people who wanted the primarily for sex. No, that would be a whore. The clear difference between a whore and a Companion was elaborated on more than once in the show, but best in _Heart of Gold_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-everyone-love-joss-whedon/526844.md?page=6)