Why does everyone love Joss Whedon?

Yeah. Compound noun. Though I’ve seen and heard ‘wage slave’ used a fair bit outside Marx’s writings. I’m fairly sure I’ve seen it on here, and I know I’ve heard it in real life - ‘what would I know, I’m just a wage slave.’ It doesn’t mean that you are bounded in servitude to one owner forever and ever and are branded and shackled. Though sometimes it can feel like that.

Yes. You said, and I quote, ‘we’re having a go at you.’ I have the same definition of that phrase as the one you have just stated. So we’re using the same definition of the phrase: we agree that you’re ‘giving me a hard time.’ Hallelujah! One phrase we agree upon on in this thread! :smiley:

But see, that’s why the term is used, when you’re talking about someone who’s tied to their job, has no emotional stake in it but for a paycheck, and doesn’t have a lot of freedom to do what they really want, because the risk of no longer earning a wage is greater than the potential reward. You’d never call a successful novelist or wealthy entrepreneur a wage slave. So it is with sex slave.

I think the operative word there was “literally.”

Well… okay, then. You seemed to think me saying that was some sort of revelation. Next time I’m disagreeing with you strongly, I’ll point out that I’m disagreeing with you strongly, just so you don’t get blindsided.

I have to disagree here. Both seasons started off horribly slowly- even allowing for a couple of baseline eps to set up the concepts- wasting time with engagement-of-the-week storylines that did almost nothing for the overall arc*. Both seasons ended on very good streaks, and I think if he’d spread the good stuff out over the whole season, we’d have a third year to look forward to.

*-I call this the Wonderfalls syndrome. See also Daises, Pushing.

I know this is pretty much the kind of thing that annoys you so much and I apologize for it, but in our defense, most of the time when we do finally get someone to watch Firefly, they get as hooked as we did and thank us for twisting their arm. I don’t know any other show with such a success rate (though I don’t watch Lost, which I assume would belong in the discussion).

Well, although I still don’t think I’m on the road to becoming a diehard Whedonite, all this discussion made me check out Dr Horrible and it looks like something I would enjoy, so I’ve ordered the DVD.

I can’t imagine the same thing happening for Buffy - the whole modern vampire thing just seem dull, IMO, even if it’s only the backdrop to any kind of storytelling.

I suppose it would be a bad thing to mention that Dr. Horrible is only three 15-minute episodes long, and all three episodes are freely available online, so if you watched those you’re not going to get any more episodes off the DVD. There’s the usual bonus features on it, though, so if you’re interested in those it’s still a good thing to get.

As I remember, the Buffybot was in large swaths of two seasons, not the single episode you seem to claim for it. It played a pivotal role in multiple story arcs, and the scooby gang ended up accepting it to the point that it was sad when it “died.”

I could be misremembering, granted, but I’m positive that “three episodes total” is you misrepresenting the prevalance of the Buffybot.

I can’t watch them in their native online environment, because they won’t stream it to locations outside the USA. I’ve looked at some of them on Youtube, but the quality is poor and they’re squeezed into the wrong shaped frame so that everyone looks too thin, plus the sections end too abruptly. I’m happy enough to buy the DVD just to have a decent-quality version to watch.

The big advantage to the Dr. Horrible DVDs is that you also get Commentary: The Musical as well. :smiley:

Ellis - Yes, the Buffybot was around, but not as a sexual device.

There’s also “Commentary! The Musical” to enjoy once the dvds arrive. Certainly worth the price.

On that subject, I went to a Dr. Horrible screening in NYC last year, and Joss had a sitdown interview afterwards. It’s easy to see that he ‘gets’ his fans, and that 's a big part of the appeal. That being said, he was asked a few questins about Dollhouse. When they got to talking about “Epitaph One” and the story that surrounds it’s creation, a big chunk of the audience started getting loud…as if not to have the episode spoiled for them. The dvds had been out for months, there were plenty of online resources for the savy fan, yet a large percentage of this audience (20%? Maybe more) hadn’t seen it.

These are people who paid a premium to watch Dr. Horrible, which is available for free, and hear Whedon speak…yet haven’t seen the much-talked about unaired episode of his current show. Maybe I’m asking too much, but if you are a rabid Whedon fan, maybe you should have seen the episode before seeing him speak.

Many of these fans also groaned when Whedon wanted to discuss the BSG finale. They were waiting for the dvds to come out to watch them then. With this mentality, I don’t wonder why his shows (and I love them–even Dollhouse) get low ratings. There’s a strange expectation from some of this fandom that will get around to watching it someday. Even those of us who are consumers (I buy the dvds…and now Blu Ray-Serenity looks great on Blu Ray) and help the bottom line from the sales standpoint, aren’t enough to counteract the lack of urgency given to watching his programs while they air.

Am I alone is wishing that he’d just sign a deal with Showtime or HBO, and do a 13 episode season of something without the usual network pressure?

While I agree with you (the number of supposed “rabid Whedonites” who watched Dollhouse in three hour chunks on Hulu is astounding), televsion studios have to stop pretending that DVDs are just a nice little bonus after the fact.

DVDs (and Blu-rays for that matter) are big business and if direct-to-DVD movies can be profitable, so can direct-to-DVD TV shows (or at least, TV shows that are expected to make most of their profit through DVD purchases/online viewing).

Family Guy and Futurama have already experimented with this format and both had great success with it. Now all we need is someone to take the live-action step and I’m sure Joss Whedon would be the perfect person to do it.

Alan Sepinwall mentioned that Whedon was having lunch with the president of FX. No word if anything came out of that meeting but FX would be perfect for Whedon.

You’re misremembering. It debuted in the 18th episode of the fifth season, was discovered deactivated in the basement of the Magic Box four episodes later (the season finale) and was destroyed two episodes later.

That said, you’re right it didn’t appear in only three episodes. It actually appeared in four.

As silenus pointed out, I was only thinking of times when it was used as a sex toy, which I think was only the one episode, maybe two. (How long did Spike have it before Buffy found out? I think it was introduced and deactivated in the same ep.) I didn’t think the episodes where it was used as a combat decoy really counted. Although given how much the goal posts on this subject have shifted since it was first broached, I have difficulty figuring out exactly what counts as a “mindless, personality free-sex slave.” I mean, if Firefly’s Companions fit under that rubric, I can’t imagine what doesn’t count.

OOOHHH! OOOHHH! OOOHHH! Mr. Kotter? Can I be one? Pretty please?

I don’t have anything to add to the ‘sex slave’ discussion but will throw out some comments on the general subject of this thread. Sorry if this ends up getting long. I’ve seen the following entertainments created by Whedon: Season 1-3 of Buffy (and this just within the past year), all of Firefly plus Serenity the movie, all of Dollhouse and Dr Horrible.

I’ll say, first of all, that I sometimes wonder how any of these shows ever got made. I imagine, for someone not necessarily interested in the sort of sci-fi premises that seem to make their way into graphic novels, the themes can seem awfully silly and obscure. Balancing vampire killing with high school angst? A vampire detective? Civil War-era carpetbaggers in space? A secret organization that deals in indentured servants with artificial personalities? Hey, well, are these really any more silly than such wildly popular guilty pleasures as The A-Team, Knight Rider or Airwolf? Next, to really get into them seems to require an investment of time and attention that many simply don’t feel up to. What many have said about Whedon’s themes being slow to develop is spot-on, IMO. Buffy, for example, doesn’t really take off (for me) until the last episode of the first season, and I can imagine it doesn’t really work at all for someon who is unwilling or unable to wade through a half-dozen or more mediocre episodes to really begin to understand the richness of scene and character in his works.

Anyway, I have gone ahead and made some investment in time, and so far things I like about Whedon’s creations (and personally find rather addictive) include an emotional authenticity that almost always rings true no matter how preposterous the story premise, the (mostly) extremely high quality of acting he obtains from his large casts; the simple and shallow pleasure of looking at all the wonderfully beautiful people with which he populates his stories, the frequent flashes of brilliance in dialogue, and, well, the darkness and pessimism that seems to seep through all his fictitious worlds.

Things I don’t necessarily like include a certain degree of politically correct preachiness, a related tendency to (only sometimes) take the themes a bit too seriously, and sometimes, too much ‘inside baseball’ for a given episode to accessible to a casual viewer.

Of the broadcast shows I’ve seen, Firefly seems to be the least flawed and the most accessible. Dr. Horrible is a fantastic illustration of imagination over (non-existent) budget, but basically a throwaway. Buffy, or what I’ve seen so far, creates a rich, complex and almost operatic legend that ends up being severely handicapped by the constraints of TV budget in a show that requires relatively large numbers of difficult special effects to even hope to be plausible. Dollhouse is perhaps the most philosophically complex of all his works, but as many have said, it was let down at first by requiring us to spend quite a lot of time with an actress of already limited range playing a blank slate, by having to wait a rather long time before finally getting to the more interesting implications of the dollhouse technology, and then later on, after cancellation was a done deal, by trying to cram about five years’ worth of ideas into six or eight one-hour episodes. I have to acknowledge that despite the show having some brilliant moments, I can understand the viewpoint of those who may have found it a frustrating mess.

As far as structure goes, there are common elements to all of his TV works that could verge on schtick, but for me at least, don’t quite (yet): the great attention taken by the writers to each little cliffhanger revealed just before a commercial break, a seeming obsession with exploring unconventional family units, the famous ‘Big Bad’ intended to support a season-long story arc, the merciless killing off of main(ish) characters in whom the audience has built up an emotional investment. Maybe it will enventually become too cliched to be of further interest, but right now I’m enjoying the hell out of his work.

Dollhouse spoilers:

I was actually kind of surprised that almost all the good guys made it out of the Dollhouse alive. Mellie/November was a bit of a shocker, but even that was a noble sacrifice. Ballard was more of a typical Whedon death, but he was kinda brought back at the very end, which I suppose is about the most shocking thing to do if you’re already a Whedon fan. I will say I’m a little worried that Whedon’s not quite done, and that Felicia Day’s corpse is going to show up somewhere.

I’ll give you the behavior of all females during “Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered.” And I’ll give you the various rent-a-whores that were imprinted onto Echo.

But that was about as far from Inara as you can get. She chooses her clients. Her profession gives her high social status. There’s never the slightest hint that what she does with her clients is “mindless” or in any way either derogatory or unfulfilling, the sole exception being Atherton Wade. And she endures much of it because she cannot simply leave after Mal is captured and facing a near certain death at Atherton’s hand in the duel. Even then, we learn at the end that it’s Atherton’s view that’s complletely off-kilter, since she calmly rejects his threat about smearing her reputation as a Companion with the news that it’s he who will earn a black mark in the Companions’ Registry and no Companion will contract with him again.

So I’d say that whatever trope Buffybot etc fit in, Inara simply doesn’t match.

I enjoy most of Joss Whedon’s work, although not unreservedly. I’m really tired of his trope of killing off characters. It was shocking the first couple times, now it’s like he’s just fucking with us. Find a new schtick, Joss.

I’m also quite familiar with human trafficking and sexual servitude. Frankly, I think it is incredibly disrespectful and diminishing to the plight of actual sex slaves to compare the horrors that they experience to the life Inara leads. She has a high social status, takes only clients that she wants, and can travel freely. Actual sex slaves are almost always women and girls drawn from impoverished countries and families, are tricked into thinking they will find legitimate work in another region or country, and instead find themselves held captive, passports withheld, raped multiple times on a daily basis, and are often told that attempts to escape will cause trouble for their families back home. How is that anything like Inara’s life?

If you want to have a legitimate debate over the ethics of Inara’s career, awesome, but using inaccurate and offensive language doesn’t help.

Bricker, in post 83 of this thread, I said that the companions weren’t stripped of personality and free will. I then said that, with the others who fit the trope more perfectly, their servitude is never condoned and they’re always fighting to get away. I appreciate what you’re saying, but it’s not actually at odds with what I’ve been saying at all. It’s just that, for some reason, everything but the phrase ‘sex slave’ seems to have become invisible to many people on this thread.

You know, this discussion has actually started to really put me off ever watching anything by Joss Whedon again. I like discussing TV shows - that’s one of the main things I get out of them - but not like this, not when it gets personal. I’m now accused of diminishing the plight of women who are trafficked and repeatedly raped. FFS.