Why does faith not need scientific evidence to be certain?

I agree.

Accept, for that sake of argument, that God exists, that he has a plan for people, and there’s an afterlife when you die. I think most people would agree this is extremely important and significant knowledge.

But can you learn this knowledge by reason and the scientific method? No. You learn it by trust and faith.

So a person with faith can honestly say that the most important knowledge they ever received was via faith not the scientific method. Their knowledge about God was more important than their knowledge about chemistry or algebra or how to drive a car.

Scientific people can argue that God is imaginary and illusionary. But a religious person would say that’s because they’re not using the right tool to look for God. God is found with faith not science.

And that same tool can be used to find fairies and Oz.

Exactly how does one use faith to determine whether Christianity, Islam, or Judaism is the proper belief? How does one use faith to determine whether God is one or three?

In general, it seems that faith only operates on things someone else has told us. How can I use faith to come up with original truths that no one else has told me?

Wait a minute.

I was with you when you said earlier that reason and trust were two avenues to knowledge. But faith/trust isn’t a source of knowledge. So I have a problem with saying that “you learn it by trust and faith.” (ETA: I posted this before reading what Trinopus said, but I think my objection is similar to his.)

I also think we need to be careful not to equate reason with the scientific method. People have been using reason in their search for truth (including religious truths) for far longer than the modern scientific method has been around.

And I think we need to be clear that faith and reason are not opposites. Sometimes, faith and reason can support each other; they can be on the same team, against emotion or intuition or desire. Examples: For someone with a fear of flying, it may take an act of faith to get on an airplane, though reason says it’s safe to do so. For a person with depression, it may take an act of faith to get out of bed in the morning or to take your meds, as reason tells you it would be in your best interest to do so. For someone who’s had previous bad relationships, it may take faith to believe their current SO loves them, even though they have reasonable evidence that points to that being the case.

Sure. But if you stick a screwdriver into a light socket and electrocute yourself, you shouldn’t blame the tool for your misuse of it.

If you have faith, God may speak these truths to you. Anyway, that’s something the faithful may say. You won’t find a scientific answer to questions of faith.

Do you love your family? If so, how do you know that? Have you ever sat down and proved that love exists or is it just something you’ve taken on faith?

When you were a child and your mother told you not to touch the stove because it was hot, did you trust her or did you insist she measure the temperature of the stove with a thermometer to prove her claim?

Is stealing wrong? Have you ever weighed the evidence on this or is it just something you believe?

There’s a lot of important knowledge in our lives that we acquired through trust and faith rather than reason.

*By definition???
*
Who provided this definition? Was it a human? Did he or she use logic to conceive of this definition, or just decide by fiat?

How was it settled upon that this (these) human(s) got to define what is and is not natural? How could they possibly even know every single item/being/phenomenon that makes up the natural universe? Was this human omniscient, perchance?

Nature exists. Absolutely everything that any human could ever detect or even conceive of (and infinitely beyond that) is either natural (existent), or fanciful (made-up). You’ve got to be one arrogant motherf*cker or crazy as a loon to proclaim that you know of the existence of something that doesn’t exist (i.e. is supernatural).


... believe in God when there is no (or little) scientific evidence to support His existence...

Here’s my opinion, and I’ll say it without the smart advanced words that the regulars of the SMDB use all the time because I’m not that smart but I understand what I know. The bottom line is you have faith, you believe in a god. I think we can ALL agree that you don’t know for sure if God is there, if you did you would be wrong. The same way I’d admit that I don’t know for sure there are black holes but I really truly believe they are there and we have just about the same amount of evidence of them as of God existing (purely circumstantial?). I think the bottom line for all religious people having that faith is influence. Years of church attending especially at a young age, or expecting good things to come and those things coming and wanting to credit someone, seeing how many others believe and go to church… sometimes I actually think to myself damn, can I really be the right one and EVERYONE else is wrong?.. I’m not that smart and yet I think these people are nuts?. I think you get my point it’s all that influence I’d say that makes you who you are and what you believe. U know that I know monsters don’t exist, and know freddy’s not real nor is jason, but just about always if I’m in the garage in the middle of the night with all the lights off I am scared a bit that somethings behind me in the dark, I wish I didn’t have that fear and I walk normal instead of running out of the basement but I still have that fear, irrational and I think in my case it’s YEARS AND YEARS of watching darn horror movies that makes me think that way.

I don’t say it works this way it is just another view I have heard, in that if the universe is infinite than any and all possibilities must exist either in “this” universe or the infinite universes beyond that.

I call hogwash but it does take you down some interesting rabbit holes.

I’ve never taken ‘love’ to exist on faith. I know it exists because I feel it. I sense it directly, even if it is internal (it’s chemical reactions after all, right?). Obviously senses can be tricked, but that’s a different kettle of fish (and besides, tricks still exist). A hallucination is still real in sense that you saw it happen, it just didn’t happen in the world around you.

It may be the case that all emotions are illusory (though I know love isn’t, because we’ve been able to study it), but then this entire existence could be illusory. It’s a good enough illusion to be consistent with how the universe works, so it may as well be real.

This is why it’s daft to argue against a person who insists that they ‘feel that god exists’. That’s fine. Nobody can categorically say they don’t, unless there was a way to monitor and quantify/qualify every emotion a human undergoes (and it seems that that would be possible).

I think the most important thing about love is, you can feel it, and someone else can feel it too. It’s validated through shared human experience. That’s how many religions seem to spread, actually. At least the Pentecostal christian varieties. They play on feelings of belonging and of gaining a higher purpose in life. Those feelings, I have no doubt, are very real chemical reactions. But it’s not rational to extend those feelings to become a basis for other claims.

Being in love with someone doesn’t make a relationship exist. Only in the most stalker-ish minds is that true. Instead the relationship itself is proof that the relationship exists. By doing the things that normally constitute what we refer to as a ‘relationship’.

It is true that we base a lot of things on trust. It’s entirely possible to come to true conclusions based on trust. But when means through evidence are available, doesn’t that have the better track record of discovering reliable conclusions? By a fluke I could believe that the bus will arrive at 10:45 and be right. And it’s true that the timetable may have given a different time. But if I could call a friend who’s already on that bus and ask them, why would I resort to making up times? This is a test that is repeatable too. If I believe in a different time each day that the bus will turn up, I may be true some of the time, but it would equally demonstrate that faith just doesn’t work most of the time. That’s because faith can only ever ‘discover’ things by accident.

I’ve been looking at how children acquire language lately, and I came across a few interesting experiments. One was a study on how the trustworthiness of a speaker effects novel word acquisition. Adults who had a track record of telling the children in the study misinformation were not trusted when they named ‘novel’ objects (objects the children had not seen before). And this continues throughout our lives. We base our knowledge on trustworthy news sources, trustworthy scientific journals, trustworthy people we meet in our day to day lives. Deciding how trustworthy a particular source is is one of the ways in which we reason, because we can’t possibly study every single minute detail of how life, the universe and everything works.

But this is a distinct action from ‘faith’. Faith is usually the result of trust. So one must decide whether a source is trustworthy enough through one’s rational faculties. Rationally, things like the Bible aren’t trustworthy sources. So if your religion is not based on a holy book, what is it based on? Faith alone is inadequate. You may trust the person who first told you about Jesus and how he can change your life. But then, with the weighty claims that religious folk make, it’s not like trusting someone a film or book will be good. Religious folk make claims about your soul. They make claims about who you may have sex with, and on what days you must rest, and what must be done to the genitalia of male children. These aren’t completely benign claims.

So a rational person should really think hard about the source of their faith. This is one of the most frustrating things for the scientific community I suppose - that they’re not considered a trustworthy source by religious people, despite having an excellent track record, and a strong desire to dispel misinformation. I suppose this is why you get global warming deniers, etc.

If one person uses faith to find a deity for which there is no evidence(God), another person uses faith to find a totally different deity for which there is no evidence(Zeus), and yet another person uses faith to find Wonder Woman, which person(if any) is misusing the tool of faith?

lets examine the inverse of the evidence that shows the bible is full of scientifically proven contradictions:

Genesis : After the flood, how did Australian marsupials find their way back to Australia?

Lev 11:5 And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud , but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

(hares and coneys are not ruminants and they do not “chew the cud.”).

Lev 11:19 groups bats with birds (fowls) …bats are mammals, not birds

Lev 11:23 describes insects as having 4 feet

Lev 14:2-52) God’s law for lepers: Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood
of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked
bird fly away. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient’s right ear,
thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear,
thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally find another pair of birds. Kill one and dip the live bird
in the dead bird’s blood. Wipe some blood on the patient’s right ear, thumb, and big toe.
Sprinkle the house with blood 7 times.

Shouldn’t we examine all the times science has been wrong also?

Faith in the Bible and faith in God are two different things.

When science errs, it corrects itself…when errors are found in the bible, dogma mandates that no corrections be made.

That is the primary difference between science and religion

7:23 And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

God seems to think the value of Pi is a constant of 3, when in fact it is an infinite value 3.1415…

We were discussing God, not religion. God is inerrant according to the faithful, so your argument would fall flat there. It’s easy to make fun of the ignorant fundamentalists who deny the evidence before their eyes. Do you do the same to scientists who are proven wrong? What about all the scientists who say they believe in God? Surely you consider them to be ignorant fools.

If Christianity didn’t exist and you had never even heard of the Bible, what “god” would you have faith in?

Job 11:9 The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.

(how long is a sphere?)

It takes a lot of faith to know you can measure the length of a sphere

Assuming I had faith in God, I’d pick the best one out there. Since I’ve never been a Christian, and never had faith in the Bible, the question isn’t very applicable to me.