# Why does France keep St. Pierre and Miquelon **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 14, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-france-keep-st-pierre-and-miquelon/188472 "2003-07-14T21:06:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-france-keep-st-pierre-and-miquelon/188472/1 "2003-07-14T21:06:41Z")
Two tiny islands off the coast of Newfoundland. Do they generate enough tourism revenue to justify their administration? Or is it just a vestige du prestige thing, as if Sweden insisted on retaining just enough of Deleware to contain a Volvo dealership with a log cabin for its sales office? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-france-keep-st-pierre-and-miquelon/188472/2 "2003-07-14T21:20:54Z")
Actually, I’m pretty sure it’s a pretty big economic loss for France…their economy is heavily subsidized by the government. There are about 7000 people on the islands, though, so maybe it’s because the population is French and wants to stay French. ---
**Author:** ![viking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@viking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/viking)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-france-keep-st-pierre-and-miquelon/188472/3 "2003-07-14T23:19:23Z")
I thought it was all about fishing rights on the grand banks (not that that’s worth that much what with the current status of the cod fishery…) IIRC, they tried to claim the full 200 mile circle at one point, which would get them a good 196 miles into the middle of Newfoundland. But even a thin wedge of fishing rights out there must be worth something (or would be, if there were any cod to be had). ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-france-keep-st-pierre-and-miquelon/188472/4 "2003-07-15T00:45:15Z")
The CIA World Factbook entry under “economics”: > [@](#): > > The inhabitants have traditionally earned their livelihood by fishing and by servicing fishing fleets operating off the coast of Newfoundland. The economy has been declining, however, because of disputes with Canada over fishing quotas and a steady decline in the number of ships stopping at Saint Pierre. In 1992, an arbitration panel awarded the islands an exclusive economic zone of 12,348 sq km to settle a longstanding territorial dispute with Canada, although it represents only 25% of what France had sought. The islands are heavily subsidized by France to the great betterment of living standards. The government hopes an expansion of tourism will boost economic prospects. Recent test drilling for oil may pave the way for development of the energy sector. From the section on French territorial disputes: > [@](#): > > Madagascar claims Bassas da India, Europa Island, Glorioso Islands, Juan de Nova Island, and Tromelin Island; Comoros claims Mayotte; Mauritius claims Tromelin Island; territorial dispute between Suriname and French Guiana; territorial claim in Antarctica (Adelie Land); Matthew and Hunter Islands, east of New Caledonia, claimed by France and Vanuatu If they’re going to argue about something like Bassas da India, an uninhabited and economically unproductive atoll in the middle of the Mozambique channel, they certainly are going to hold on to St. Pierre and Miquelon. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-france-keep-st-pierre-and-miquelon/188472/5 "2003-07-15T01:09:26Z")
Hey, I visited St. Pierre once. Gendarmes, croissants, and a French stamp in your passport. It’s way cool! But seriously, what nation ever does a cost-benefit analysis on retaining sovereignty over its territory? Is it “worth it” for the United States to keep the Aleutians, or Point Roberts, or Isle au Haut? St. Pierre is French, and the people on it are French citizens and wish to remain so, and that’s about as far as one need analyze it. ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-france-keep-st-pierre-and-miquelon/188472/6 "2003-07-15T02:19:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jklann \* > \*\*But seriously, what nation ever does a cost-benefit analysis on retaining sovereignty over its territory? Is it “worth it” for the United States to keep the Aleutians, or Point Roberts, or Isle au Haut? St. Pierre is French, and the people on it are French citizens and wish to remain so, and that’s about as far as one need analyze it. \*\* I don’t know about Isle au Haut, but the Aleutians and Point Roberts are parts of actual states (AK and WA), not just unattached territories of the US. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-france-keep-st-pierre-and-miquelon/188472/7 "2003-07-15T04:30:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AWB \* > \*\*I don’t know about Isle au Haut, but the Aleutians and Point Roberts are parts of actual states (AK and WA), not just unattached territories of the US. \*\* And Hawaii is just off the Continental Shelf, eh? France keeps control of those island because it can, and because the inhabitants don’t complain. Just like the US can keep a hold of American Samoa, the UK can keep hold of Gibraltar, and Spain can keep hold of Cueta (which I probably spelled really wrong). ---
**Author:** ![ubermensch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bcef8e/32.png) [@ubermensch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ubermensch)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-france-keep-st-pierre-and-miquelon/188472/8 "2003-07-15T04:36:51Z")
I’m planning a road trip to St. Pierre and Miquelon next summer or so, just so I can honestly say I drove to France. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-france-keep-st-pierre-and-miquelon/188472/9 "2003-07-15T13:52:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AWB \* > \*\*I don’t know about Isle au Haut, but the Aleutians and Point Roberts are parts of actual states (AK and WA), not just unattached territories of the US. \*\* It’s impossible to compare status exactly between the United States and France, since France doesn’t have states, but St. Pierre and Miquelon are more equivalent to Hawaii than to American Samoa. The citizens of St. Pierre vote in French presidential and parliamentary elections. It is not a colony. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-france-keep-st-pierre-and-miquelon/188472/10 "2003-07-15T15:22:29Z")
Calling SPM’s relationship with France the same as Hawaii with the USA is not accurate. SPM, (unlike Hawaii, Samoa, Guam etc) has it’s own postage stamps, only usable there. SPM is recognized by the [Universal Postal Union](http://www.upu.int) as a distinct entity. They do however use euros for money, and the stamps are denominated in euros ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-france-keep-st-pierre-and-miquelon/188472/11 "2003-07-15T15:53:40Z")
If anyone’s curious, the official status for SPM is **collectivité territoriale de la République Française**. In English: Territorial collectivity of the French Republic. It would be rather time-consuming and not that intersting to get into the detail of what that means exactly, but suffice to say that the two most important aspects specific to this status are: 1) fiscal autonomy and 2) “customs” autonomy. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-france-keep-st-pierre-and-miquelon/188472/12 "2003-07-15T17:16:57Z")
It’s megalomania. No, really. It makes France continue to feel like the globally playing superpower it ceased to be after WW2. No, I do not have a cite on this, but it seems pretty obvious to me, so count it as an IMHO contribution. ---
**Author:** ![jovan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/0ea827/32.png) [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-france-keep-st-pierre-and-miquelon/188472/13 "2003-07-16T01:30:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Schnitte \* > \*\*It’s megalomania. No, really. It makes France continue to feel like the globally playing superpower it ceased to be after WW2. > No, I do not have a cite on this, but it seems pretty obvious to me, so count it as an IMHO contribution. \*\* You might make this argument for South Pacific possessions but it doesn’t hold for St-Pierre et Miquelon IMO. Residents consider themselves French and, ASFAIK, want to remain French. As was already pointed out, this is all that matters. Can you imaging Paris going: “well, gee, you’re awfully far from the mainland, and, you know, you’re making us look like nostalgic megalomaniacs, and so we’ll be selling you to the highest bidder shortly”? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2003, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-france-keep-st-pierre-and-miquelon/188472/14 "2003-07-16T12:55:51Z")
Regarding these islands: during the US Prohibition period (1919-1933), these islands were really humming! Most of the fishermen stopped chasing cod, and instead transported west indian rum tothe USA coast (hence the word “rumrunner”). I understand that many islanders made a pile of cash-you sailed to the Carribean, and took on rum which you paid 5o cents/gallon. You then transported it to St Pierre, and you couldsellit to the thirsty Americans for $5/gallon. I understand that Al capone even visited St. Pierre once!