# Why does Gandalf get a ring? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 7, 2000, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124 "2000-11-07T15:48:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![muppetsoup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aca169/32.png) [@muppetsoup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muppetsoup)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124/41 "2000-11-07T22:38:17Z")
err… no, i was actually wondering where the troll thing came in. I guess i’m lost. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124/42 "2000-11-07T23:06:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried \* > Me: «_Well, according to JeffB above, Gandalf is also one of the Maiar (though I’m not sure where he got that information), which would make him as old as Sauron._» > > muppetsoup : «_That info comes from ‘The Silmarillion’._» > > I don’t remember reading that in the Silmarillion. Do you remember where it says that? I don’t remember the exact location either, but it is definitely in there. When the Silmarillion was first published, I remember the shock of recognition I had when I read the name “Olorin.” I shared this fact with the friend who had introduced me to Tolkien. Olorin was a Maia of Irmo, IIRC, although he also took counsel from Nienna. This is probably in one of the sections describing the different Valar and the Maia associated with them. I think the reference there is just a few lines. ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124/43 "2000-11-07T23:13:30Z")
I’m pretty sure Irmo is the actual name of the Vala more commonly known as Lorien. Lorien is actually the name of the place in the west of Valinor where he dwells. ---
**Author:** ![absoul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc8723/32.png) [@absoul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/absoul)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2000, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124/44 "2000-11-07T23:31:02Z")
OK, just got to work and I DO have the hardcover versions of both “The Lord of the Rings” and “The Silmarillion” just hanging out on my desk. _starts thumbing through for reference answers_ ---
**Author:** ![muppetsoup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aca169/32.png) [@muppetsoup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muppetsoup)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124/45 "2000-11-08T04:36:24Z")
Silmarillion p. 300 in my copy from 1983… say 24 paragraphs from the end of the book. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124/46 "2000-11-08T07:42:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > As to the Balrog’s wings, the relevant passage is in _The Fellowship of the Ring_, book ii, chapter 5, "The Bridge of Khazad-Dûm. On page 429 in the Ballantine Books 13th printing, it states > > > [@](#): > > > > His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. > > This looks like it’s probably to be considered figurative, and not to be real wings. You stopped reading a bit too soon. In the middle of that page it says > [@](#): > > [The Balrog] stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and **its wings** were spread from wall to wall; Sound like real wings to me. As for why he couldn’t save himself by flying out of the pit, probably a combination of there being little room to fly along with the fact that he was fighting Gandalf the whole way. > [@](#): > > _originally posted by Dinsdale_ > Speaking of balrogs - that’s probably the one character I was never able to get a good mental image of. What do you geeks think of when you read of balrogs? A guy in a Villanova shirt dribbling a basketball. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124/47 "2000-11-08T16:08:41Z")
> [@](#): > > A guy in a Villanova shirt dribbling a basketball. “Back, vile hoopster” ---
**Author:** ![barton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@barton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barton)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124/48 "2000-11-08T19:05:13Z")
A friend of mine has a book of Tolkien’s letters where he berates some movie industry fellow working on a film treatment (the individual is referred to only as ‘Z’) about the appearance of the Balrog. I forget whether or not it concerned wings, but it has an unforgettable line, among many other choice veiled insults: “Z may think he knows more about Balrogs than I do, but he will not be able to convince me of this.” IMHO I’ve always thought the Balrog was a wingless man-shape holding two weapons, and the shadow-wings more of an aura of doom surrounding it. Later on in the Two Towers Gandalf describes a little of chasing the Balrog’s heels (wasn’t flying, at any rate) through some passages and ends with him chucking the guy off a cliff into a mountainside. ---
**Author:** ![BBS\_Addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ea5d25/32.png) [@BBS\_Addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BBS_Addict)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124/49 "2000-11-08T19:18:10Z")
What I want to know is. Was J.R.R Tolkien a genius, he has never been supplanted as the master of fantasy fiction as far as I’m concerned. ---
**Author:** ![barton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@barton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barton)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124/50 "2000-11-08T20:11:26Z")
Certainly few have his attention to detail. Part of this probably stems from working on the books for decades - they weren’t things he churned out in six months. They were products of a lifetime of work. The books languished for years without publication and this may have helped some as well, giving him more time to edit and make it all internally consistent. Must have been hard on him, though, in the meantime, not knowing if they’d ever see the light of day. Hell, it’s been six months since I gave my first to my agent and I’m already grumbling - but I caught a bunch of little things in the meantime, spruced passages up, etc. Perhaps his genius was in his patience and knowing he had the right stuff. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124/51 "2000-11-08T20:17:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by barton \* > **A friend of mine has a book of Tolkien’s letters where he berates some movie industry fellow working on a film treatment (the individual is referred to only as ‘Z’) about the appearance of the Balrog.** I’d wager that “Z” was Saul Zaentz, who owns the film rights to Tolkien’s work. ---
**Author:** ![muppetsoup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aca169/32.png) [@muppetsoup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muppetsoup)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2000, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124/52 "2000-11-08T22:51:47Z")
and cane we assume he was talking about the ralph bakshi lotr movie? the balrog did actually laugh… awful, just awful. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Mermaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@The\_Mermaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Mermaid)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2000, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124/53 "2000-11-09T21:19:49Z")
My two cents The first thing I do when i pick up any copy of the master’s works is see if they use the word “goblins” instead of the proper word “orcs” A goblin sounds kinda cute while an orc definately does not. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2000, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124/54 "2000-11-11T01:46:47Z")
Well, Tolkien did prefer the term “orc”, but he used the term “goblin” exclusively in _The Hobbit_. He also said somewhere that in retrospect, he wished he had used the term “dwarrow” instead of “dwarf”, which likewise had preconceived connotations. Of course, the connotations of “dwarf” nowadays (at least in the fantasy context) are almost entirely based on Tolkien’s work, so perhaps it didn’t make any difference. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2000, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124/55 "2000-11-11T02:08:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yabob \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > A guy in a Villanova shirt dribbling a basketball. > > “Back, vile hoopster” > \*\* _A ballhog!_ PS- Bored of the Rings just may be the funniest book I’ve ever read. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2000, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124/56 "2000-11-11T05:13:53Z")
Actually, IMO, “Bored of the Rings” was terribly uneven. And a lot of the humor is very dated for the modern reader, depending, on pop cultural references relevent in 1969. But some of the bits are really funny - like the ballhog. The opening section “concerning bogies” comapared against the “concerning hobbits” opener in LOTR is a wonderful example of how parody writing should be done. ---
**Author:** ![scratch1300](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@scratch1300](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch1300)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2000, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124/57 "2000-11-11T14:16:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > **He also said somewhere that in retrospect, he wished he had used the term “dwarrow” instead of “dwarf”, which likewise had preconceived connotations.** IIRC, what Tolkien said was, that “dwarf” would have evolved an irregular plural like “dwarrows”, if we had really believed in their existence. As it was, Tolkien compromised and chose the plural “dwarves”. His editors changed it to “dwarfs” but Tolkien pressed back on them, and eventually prevailed. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2000, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124/58 "2000-11-11T18:57:49Z")
> [@](#): > > The books languished for years without publication and this may have helped some as well, giving him more time to edit and make it all internally consistent. Must have been hard on him, though, in the meantime, not knowing if they’d ever see the light of day. Hell, it’s been six months since I gave my first to my agent and I’m already grumbling - but I caught a bunch of little things in the meantime, spruced passages up, etc. Not true at all. _The Hobbit_ was printed very soon after its completion, Tolkein having written the story mainly on the back of exam papers he was grading as an Oxford don. He also published _The Lord of The Rings_ sequentially immediately as each of the three ‘books’ was completed; indeed, Houghton Mifflen badgered him quite a bit to complete the books, since they wanted to cash in on his popularity from _The Hobbit_ and Tolkein was such a fussy writer that it took him forever to feel comfortable publishing each work. In short, although _LotR_ was started before WWII, it was not finished until the 1950’s, at which time it was instantly published. Now, what DID languish for some considerable time were the various stories that were eventually compiled into _The Silmarillion_. Some of those stories date back to pre-WWI efforts by Tolkein when he was first envisioning his universe, and never dreamed that the stories would actually be published. If anyone wants to REALLY geek out over Professor Tolkein’s works, buy the multiple volume set of books published by Christopher Tolkein, detailing the history of the writing of Tolkein’s works; I think that is up to something like 13 hard-covered books now, each of which describes in painstaking detail the process Tolkein underwent in evolving his stories. Reference is made to the available manuscripts, copious notes, etc. left by Tolkein. I have four or five of the books by Chris Tolkein packed away; I actually reached the limit of my geekiness on the subject, to my surprise. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-gandalf-get-a-ring/40124.md?page=2)