# Why does garbage collection lose money?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 9, 2000, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664 "2000-08-09T03:05:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Anti\_Pro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Anti\_Pro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anti_Pro)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2000, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664/21 "2000-08-10T19:49:29Z")
\*\* > [@](#): > > If you like, we all benefit from living in a non-stinky disease ridden area, but the sum of our voluntary contributions would pay for less than the desireable amount of sanitation. The market fails due to public good/ externality problems. (Of course some people would say that the market would overcome these problems given the chance.) > \*\* Okay, that makes a great deal of sense, \*\* picmr. \*\* But does that mean that all garbage collections all over the US are they just state funded or federally funds as well? Are they given the same amounts of money or is it dependant upon the size of a particular city? Because it seems that if they are given more money in the larger towns, it would encourage companies to stay in bigger cities, thus creating problems for smaller principalities. ---
**Author:** ![FarTreker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@FarTreker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FarTreker)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2000, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664/22 "2000-08-11T00:06:02Z")
Ignoring the deliberate picks at my phraseology, it does make more sense to have as much of a recycling society as possible instead of a ‘throw it out and buy a new one’ mental state. I bought a small $50 television one day and, after a bit, it broke. I took it in to have it fixed and the guy told me that it would cost more than it’s worth. He said pitch it and go to the store and buy a new one. I looked at the TV, a bit bigger than a computer monitor, and wondered how many thousands would hit the land fill. Not too long ago I found out about companies who upgrade their computers. The old ones are pitched out. (I was appalled! I would have taken a bunch of them!) Later I saw a commentary on how so many discarded computers with their rare earth components were starting to pollute the landfills. Because of where I live, I’m real sensitive to pollution. Florida, thanks to people bringing in exotic plants, and pets plus over building on sensitive lands, is an ecological mess. (I’ve never understood why customs will grab your butt for trying to bring in a bag of candy from Mexico, but allow idiots to import and sell exotic animals – which get loose in great numbers. Or why some people can get into Cuba, avoid all customs and smuggle back exotic seeds, which they plant and then wonder why the stuff is pushing out the natural vegetation.) The wood and carpet industries are making big bucks from recycling. (New glue composite boards made from wood scraps. Carpet made with recycled soda bottles.) I’ve watched wooden houses being torn down and all of the still usable, aged wood go into dumpsters. In a few places, people salvage old beams, boards and stuff for resale, but not many. Some places now salvage and resell doors, fixtures, windows and even gates but the common practice is to rip the old place down and dump it in a land fill. If it can be reused, then it should. If the Japanese can do it efficiently then why can’t we? I couldn’t care less if my car is made out of a 1972 Ford and if my TV screen comes from old pickle bottles. I have no problem if the gold in my computer circuits is from ancient computers nor if some of the rare earth elements in all of those itty bitty thingies is salvaged from old itty bitty thingies. The lumber industry has been chipping away at our national forests with the excuse that ‘there’s plenty of timber yet’ and leaving behind artificially replanted and dramatically changed forests in their wakes. In the meantime, the recyclers are churning out better composite lumber than ever before at a good profit. Thousands of those brown medicine bottles are pitched out each day – the plastic ones. Plastic comes from oil, along with gas. We use millions of tons of plastic each year and heave it away and wonder why gasoline is high. In the mean time, the industry churns out plastic cups, plates, forks, spoons, razors, 6 pack holders, wrappers, packages, hair spray containers and so on. Most goes into landfills. Just because the land is there doesn’t mean we need to poke a land fill on it for archeologists, in a 1000 years or so, to sift through in awe. Detroit turned out cars designed to fail after 60,000 miles and planned for you to buy a new one each year. Not until the Japanese started shoving cars over here that could go beyond 100,000 miles did they change things. I recall great junk car yards, consisting of acres and acres of junked cars – and reading about the steel industry having problems because iron ore imports were expensive. There was all the steel they could ever desire rusting away in those lots. Now you can buy plastic phones and when they break, you pitch them out but I still recall the time honored, long lifed Bell Telephone. (My Mother had one of those black ones with a dial for 30 years!) I have a GE memory phone that has been with me for going on 15 years! It is well built! (It has outlasted two $10 plastic extension phones that I’ve had over the years.) It has also outlasted two televisions, the ‘unrepairable’ types bought on sale at Walmart. I think we need to look into Japan recycling. Not only is there money to be made in it, but other benefits as well. A little parable here: Local commercial fishermen bitched and moaned when the government started to put limits on the catch and how to catch it. (Some used dynamight if they could get away with it.) After all, there are plenty of fish in the river and the ocean. The government dithered and suddenly, everyone, including the fishermen noticed that the available fish had dwindled in amount and size, some almost vanishing. They were over using the waters. Their nets also scooped up restricted game fish, but by the time they yanked them out of the holes, those fish were dead, so they threw them over the side, effectively diminishing the number of such fish. By the time the government stepped in and closed the fishing, the river and breeding grounds had been dangerously over fished. It will take a couple of decades for the fish to return. Still the fishermen bitch about the government, but they actually put themselves out of business. If we keep dumping everywhere, we’re eventually going to over use the land. If we keep making everything disposable, the sources of the raw materials will eventually run low and the price go high. ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2000, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664/23 "2000-08-11T05:44:37Z")
[quote] \*(Antipro)_are they just state funded or federally funds as well? Are they given the same amounts of money or is it dependant upon the size of a particular city?_ I don’t know about the US. In Australia these services are usually funded by local council rates, although there may be state and federal regulations involved too. picmr ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2000, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664/24 "2000-08-11T12:27:08Z")
When I grew up, we used to get **cash** for our aluminum. We’d cart it down to the Coors Recycling Center, and they’d pay us 24 cents per pound (0.82 squid/joule). Now, they just want you to _give_ it back. I say, “Screw 'em!” :D:D ---
**Author:** ![Al\_Camuss](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Al\_Camuss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al_Camuss)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2000, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664/25 "2000-08-11T12:55:38Z")
You can still sell your cans at a recycler. They’re not hard to find. Two trucks a week may seem inefficient but it beats thousands of cars each with a bag of cans. Curbside pickup is more convenient, increases participation, and saves money. The aluminum revenue pays for the infrastructure to collect less lucrative items like soda bottles. Future incendiary posts will be result in pincers being applied. ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2000, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664/26 "2000-08-11T22:04:35Z")
This really is more of a Great Debate. So off it goes! your humble TubaDiva Administrator ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2000, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664/27 "2000-08-11T23:10:00Z")
It is? Its a comment about Cecils column maybe thats where it should be? He did say it depended on how many trucks they sent. Here, in Monterey, Calif, they have three…what silliness. One for Recyclables, one for trash & one for yard stuff. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2000, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664/28 "2000-08-11T23:31:12Z")
Both recycling and garbage create jobs. That’s good. And no, I don’t want a landfill in _my_ backyard. I like knowing that some areas are pristine, even though I may never go there. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. 🙂 So I’ll pay the taxes and fees, and keep my big mouth shut. Well, except for the corruption part. 🙂 Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![Anti\_Pro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Anti\_Pro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anti_Pro)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2000, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664/29 "2000-08-12T03:23:05Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by picmr \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*(Antipro)_are they just state funded or federally funds as well? Are they given the same amounts of money or is it dependant upon the size of a particular city?_ > I don’t know about the US. In Australia these services are usually funded by local council rates, although there may be state and federal regulations involved too. > > picmr \*\* Thanks for taking time to answer my question, \*\* picmr \*\* I appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2000, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664/30 "2000-08-12T19:02:17Z")
Why is it better to have individuals sort their recyclables, rather than the recycling company? When individuals do the sorting, the cost is less visible, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It seems to be that recyclables can be sorted much more efficiently mechanically than by hand. Oh, and Da Ace: what’s with this comment? > [@](#): > > Oh, and I didn’t mean the stuff at the beginning of my reply as a personal attack, but knee-jerk “recycling is good! We will brook no criticism of it!” really sticks in my craw. The only person who I have seen here who is unable to deal with criticism is you. ---
**Author:** ![Al\_Camuss](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Al\_Camuss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al_Camuss)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2000, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664/31 "2000-08-13T12:59:39Z")
?? Most curbside programs do do the sorting for you - those fleet fingered fellows on the back of the truck. For programs with central collection areas one reason for to presort is to avoid mixed broken glass. One broken brown or green bottle ruins a whole load of clear. (Same w/ other combinations.) Another reason is to make it more aparent that recycling isn’t magic. #6 plastic isn’t recyclable. Just because that bread bag or inner tube seems recyclable to you doesn’t mean that it is. Recycling stations start to look like garbage dumps very quickly. The first principle of recycling is that the quality needs to be uniform going in. It’s entropy - once things become disordered straightening them up takes more work. Lots of work has gone into automating recycling, particularly for plastics. I’m not aware of any highly automated systems. The income from recyling has been to meager to buy robots. Teachers take their kids to the recyling plant to show them what their life will be like if they don’t study. ---
**Author:** ![marvz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58f4c7/32.png) [@marvz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marvz)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2000, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664/32 "2000-08-13T18:22:46Z")
The orginal ? came from Albuquerque where I also live. It is my understanding that even newsprint and cardboard doesn’t really pay to recycle here. Where it is economic, is where there are paper plants nearby and in larger cities there are special recycle paper plants. Albuquerque is too small and the paper must by shipped a long distance - therefore uneconomical. Furthermore the Albuquerque City monthly bill contains a line for recycling and it is an additional charge - not a credit. Despite the above I am generally in favor of recycling. Economics isn’t the only determinant for doing something. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2000, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664/33 "2000-08-13T19:24:50Z")
I tend to agree with marvz. Economics isn’t the only consideration for recycling. BTW; I once had a gf named Marym. Any relation? 😉 Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![G.B.H.Hornswoggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c67d28/32.png) [@G.B.H.Hornswoggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G.B.H.Hornswoggler)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2000, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664/34 "2000-08-14T14:03:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > **Why is it better to have individuals sort their recyclables, rather than the recycling company? When individuals do the sorting, the cost is less visible, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. It seems to be that recyclables can be sorted much more efficiently mechanically than by hand.** A very good point, and one that doesn’t get mentioned enough. Recycling programs rely on lots of unpaid work by all of the citizens in their area to make them work. If they had to pay people to do all of that sorting, washing, and so on, the economics would look even worse. \*\* > [@](#): > > Oh, and Da Ace: what’s with this comment? > > > [@](#): > > > > Oh, and I didn’t mean the stuff at the beginning of my reply as a personal attack, but knee-jerk “recycling is good! We will brook no criticism of it!” really sticks in my craw. > > The only person who I have seen here who is unable to deal with criticism is you. \*\* Well, I was _trying_ to say that I wasn’t attempting to throw this into Great Debates, or be vituperative, that I was just picking nits and shooting at easy targets. Neither of the people I “attacked” ( **Al Camuss** and **FarTreker** ) seem to have taken it personally, which was my aim. Pro-recycling advocates always grab the moral high ground, which is what annoys me. It’s primarily an economic matter. You don’t recycle because it’s good for your soul; you recycle particular things because it’s cheaper and better to do that than to throw them away. I will admit that “Show your biases much?” is deliberately inflamatory, but the rest of what I said to **FarTreker** (by the way, “Trekker” usually has 2 Ks – I keep having to remind myself as I type it. Or was that the idea?) is about the facts. ---
**Author:** ![G.B.H.Hornswoggler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c67d28/32.png) [@G.B.H.Hornswoggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G.B.H.Hornswoggler)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2000, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664/35 "2000-08-14T14:06:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by marvz \* > \*\*Despite the above I am generally in favor of recycling. Economics isn’t the only determinant for doing something. > \*\* But what else would be? If it costs more to recycle than to throw out (and you can certainly quantify the downstream costs to future generations, which is necessary for toxic materials in particular), then why would you want to waste money that way? I think you might be using “economic” to mean something like “short-sighted immediate profit,” which isn’t (I think) what the rest of us using the word mean. ---
**Author:** ![Al\_Camuss](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Al\_Camuss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al_Camuss)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2000, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664/36 "2000-08-14T14:26:24Z")
We do LOTS of things based on emotion (aka irrationality). (e.g. Complain about gas prices while driving an SUV). An emotional reason for recycling is that it feels good not wasting things. Or that by recycling we’re collectively striving for the goal of an efficient sytem like Japan’s or Germany’s. Or that you’re actively doing something good for the environment. I’ve been an environmental engineer for 9 years but my work seems to have had less benefit to the environment than a bag of cans. If there’s one thing I know it’s that recycling soda cans is good for the environment. (The energy savings especially.) No so-called rational person, not even you Ace, would dispute that. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2000, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664/37 "2000-08-14T14:36:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > Up here in the cosmopolitan Plano, Texas, we went to the system you describe more than ten years ago. It’s the best thing the city has ever done. Here are the reasons: \*\* As a former Plano resident myself I have to agree that I liked the system. When we got those big green monsters to put the trash into I loved it. But I have to admit I failed to recycle my trash. Mainly it was because I didn’t feel like taking the time to put stuff that can be recycled into those tiny green boxes. I think recycling would be better off if they figured out a way to sort the trash themselves. To many people don’t want to take the time to do that at home. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I don’t think it’s a bribery thing as you suggest - it’s a money-saver for the city and a great convenience for the citizens. Besides, garbage collection is not run by the mafia down here like it is in the northeast (surely you’re a displaced Yankee). Most places, the city does the whole thing. \*\* BFI handles a lot of corporate garbage in the Dallas area. In Plano, DSC (or Alcatel now), used BFI to pick up their trash. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Zambezi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Mr.Zambezi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Zambezi)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2000, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664/38 "2000-08-14T15:49:26Z")
I think that recycling by collecting cans and having separate pick up is the wrong way to look at it. Conservation and recycling should be focused on at the packaging and re-use levels. First of all, buying things like soda in small units is inherently wasteful. Don’t think you are doing the worl a favor by recycling your cans. By buying cans you are fueling the need for more aluminim. Instead, buy 2 liter bottles. And re-use what you can. I use the plastic grocery bags I get about 4 times before discarding them (not including the ones I use to pick up dog poop.) They are not easily recycled en masse, but they are darn usefull. I doubt that we will get manufacturers to stop using bubble pack and bulky packaging, but if they did, it would go a long way to end waste. sometimes the cost of what you buy is 1/3 packaging cost. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-garbage-collection-lose-money/28664.md?page=1)