# Why does God create people that he knows are doomed to hell. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 2, 2002, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956 "2002-06-02T00:26:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Calliope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Calliope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Calliope)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2002, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/41 "2002-06-02T18:06:02Z")
Why the insistence on a punitive God? My understanding of God is that he provides the opportunities for us to evolve spiritually. If one chooses not to eveolve, or even to devolve, well then I suppose you could call it hell, but I don’t. God will always welcome us back to the source, and will always continue to provide the opportunities. It is truly up to us to decide what to do with them. If you want to talk about this in the simplistic, literal terms of Heaven and Hell, well then I suppose Hell is the state of being separate from God. But I don’t believe in it as a physical place, so I don’t see the hole in my logic. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2002, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/42 "2002-06-02T18:09:33Z")
I’ve said this many times, and I’ll probably have to say this many more times, **Libertarian** : Disagreeing with your position does not mean I do not understand your position. It could possibly mean that I fully understand your position and think that it is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2002, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/43 "2002-06-02T18:22:06Z")
When did I say that you don’t understand my position? So far, you’ve seen cites I didn’t give you, contradictions where none exist, and misunderstandings that never happened. Are you all right? ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2002, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/44 "2002-06-02T18:24:02Z")
Lib: > [@](#): > > If He is all powerful as well as all knowing, than He can easily suppress whatever knowledge He desires for the purpose of insuring that His will does not trump ours. What does this even mean? Why would knowledge cause his will to trump ours? God does not have to suppress his knowledge in order to prevent himself from compelling our actions. He can choose not to compell us, despite his knowledge. > [@](#): > > Why shouldn’t He be comfortable with allowing people to make their own moral decisions? Why should his knowledge of someone’s moral decision make him uncomfortable? He doesn’t have to block out that knowledge, and you have not explained why you think he does. Calliope: > [@](#): > > Besides, you are assuming that A happens before B, limited by our own understanding of how time works. The reason God could know an outcome without influencing an outcome is because all that will ever happen has already happened and continues to happen. Lib, you said you agreed with Calliope, but I think you should read this over again if you still think god is blocking out knowledge. Lib: > [@](#): > > I’m no psychiatrist, but I think it’s called an obsessive compulsion to be deliberately obtuse and offensive. I could say that it is offensive to me that you believe in a god that can be proved logically, deliberately blocks knowledge from himself, and that you enjoy attacking people who disagree with this personal god of yours. I believe in a God that requires faith, knows everything, and never takes away the chance of salvation. I believe that we will keep trying until we get it right, and that eventually everyone will be saved. Personally, I wonder what the psychiatric term is for someone who actually seems to take pleasure in the thought that some people will be choosing an eternity of pain. Why not believe that they will eventually get it right? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2002, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/45 "2002-06-02T18:35:04Z")
Night > [@](#): > > Why would knowledge cause his will to trump ours? God does not have to suppress his knowledge in order to prevent himself from compelling our actions. He can choose not to compell us, despite his knowledge. I think that’s a defensible position. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2002, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/46 "2002-06-02T19:06:41Z")
**Libertarian** , might I suggest that you quit using terms like “deliberately obtuse” and “bully”? _I_ am not the subject of this thread, and your attempts to argue my motives as you imagine them instead of the points of the actual discussion do nothing to further the discussion. Does the god that you worship know _everything_ or not? Note that _everything_ by definition must include the knowledge beforehand that some of the people he creates will not be saved. If he chooses to make someone that he knows will not be saved, how can this person make it into Heaven? ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2002, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/47 "2002-06-02T19:44:21Z")
> [@](#): > > If he chooses to make someone that he knows will not be saved, how can this person make it into Heaven? 1. Maybe they can’t, but they have value anyway. 2. Maybe not being saved is not so terrible, so why shouldn’t god make people who won’t make it to heaven? 3. Maybe everyone will eventually be saved. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2002, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/48 "2002-06-02T20:22:41Z")
Can God limit his omniscience? We know that it is logically impossible for God’s omnipotence to limit itself, and we know that it is logically impossible for God’s omniscience to limit itself. I don’t see any reason to believe that God couldn’t limit his omniscience. However, if He did so, he would no longer _be_ omniscient, and thus would no longer be God. (What would He become? I don’t know… but He would be something other than what we consider God to be.) God cannot limit His knowledge and remain God. While God’s perspective is atemporal, that doesn’t allow us to get around the problem. From an atemporal viewpoint, the results of a decision and the decision itself both exist ‘at once’ (there’s no English word to describe things out of time, this is the best I can do). However, the concept of ‘choice’ as we usually mean it is not meaningful, as there can never be uncertainty as to the outcome of any ‘choice’. How do we make choices? What mechanism determines our selections? If the mechanism is deterministic, then there is no other choice we could make. If the mechanism is non-deterministic, then God cannot know from within time what the outcome will be, and from outside time has always known what the outcome is (but the selection is ‘random’ and has no causal relationship to events that are ‘before’ it). ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2002, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/49 "2002-06-02T22:38:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ResIpsaLoquitor \* > \*\* > It’s the old “Love Potion #9” story. Boy fls in love with girl, girl doesn’t return boy’s love. Mysterious man offers boy a potion that will make girl love boy. Boy buys potion and girl drinks. Girl’s madly in love with boy, but boy is incredibly bored with it. Boy realizes that he wanted girl to freely accept him, and having her forced into loving him like this isn’t nearly as satisfying. (Boy returns to mysterious man and learns the antidote costs $10,000.) \*\* If you are refering to John Collier’s famous short story _The Chaser_, there is no antidote. The other potion the man sells, the expensive one, the one he is sure to mention to the young man before selling him the love potion, is a deadly and untraceable poison. This may or may not say something about god, but if it does, I’m glad I’m an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/50 "2002-06-03T00:21:47Z")
> [@](#): > > What does this even mean? Why would knowledge cause his will to trump ours? God does not have to suppress his knowledge in order to prevent himself from compelling our actions. He can choose not to compell us, despite his knowledge. He can’t really do so, as I tried to explain in a previous post. If he’s omniscient, when he created you, he knew exactly, and always had known, everything you’ll ever do. He has always known what path you’ll follow, if he were to create you. Nevertheless he choose to do so. He could have created whatever other human being, who would have followed any path imaginable. Amongst these infinite posibilities, he choose to create someone (you) he knew will follow the path you followed/will follow. Since he can choose who he creates (he’s omniscient and omnipotent), he deliberatly created a being who will follow a given path (yours). It’s not really “free will”, here, or at least this free will is meaningless from his point of view. As I said in my example he choose to create you knowing fully what will be your choices in your life, in the same way one would choose to put a little pale blue bead on a string rather than a big bright red one. He doesn’t force you to be a little pale blue bead . Rather, he created you as little pale blue bead. You can’t be something else. The only way out, is to assume that god has limitations; for instance, is not omniscient and don’t know how a being he creates will act, or is not omnipotent, and can’t chose who he will create. Libertarian supports the idea that god has self-imposed limitations. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/51 "2002-06-03T01:19:46Z")
a) Isn’t it marvelous, and a clear sign of the Creator’s omnipotence, that the earth \*just happens - to satisfy a very large number of important criteria, every one of which is necessary for human life? Even the laws of the universe as a whole! I mean, do you realize that if water froze like most fluids freeze–from the bottom up–that life would never have developed? b) Do you realize that if you control for social prestige, political power, and socioeconomic status, neither race or sex has anything to do with the likelihood of a given individual running a major corporation, holding major political office, or otherwise being one of the people who play a major role in controlling our world? But so many people think that racism and sexism are meaingful factors in one’s ability to succeed in our society, go figure! c) It is the goal of our noble political party to establish a society where 100% of our fair citizens will be living above the poverty line. It is beneath our dignity as enlightened people to have a significant portion of our populace forced to live in the bottom percentiles. And when it comes to education we want to see every student perform at average or better rates, and there is not excuse for not taking the steps necessary to attain this dream! I think it’s all a variant on _petitio principii_, begging the question. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/52 "2002-06-03T01:53:42Z")
Picking a nit: The poverty line is defined on an absolute and not a relative basis. _Possible Answers to Question, Choose 1 or more (or less)_ Hell isn’t so bad. G-d isn’t so good. G-d is not omniscient. G-d is not omnipotent. G-d is good, but we misunderstand him and Her situation; different perspective, you see; our morality is a mere human one. It’s a mystery. _Others Answers (Ducks, IMHO)_ Don’t ask the question. It’s not G-d’s fault, it’s the sinner’s fault. _Problem of Evil, possible answers_ The world is actually the best of all possible worlds. (Free will may enter here. As well as faith.) G-d isn’t so good. G-d is not omniscient. G-d is not omnipotent. G-d is good, but we misunderstand him and Her situation; different perspective, you see; our morality is a mere human one. It’s a mystery. _Variants_ During creation, G-d was omnipotent. Not anymore. By design. Once we admit the possibility of an entity with multiple aspects, other possibilities present themselves. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/53 "2002-06-03T16:59:00Z")
From our perspective, God creates someone, they live and die, and go on to their eternal reward, all in a straight linear fashion, timewise. You ever thought that maybe time works differently for an omniscient being, in a way that casts a completely different light on the OP question? ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/54 "2002-06-03T21:45:04Z")
I know there is a verse, somewhere in proverbs, i _think,_ that says exactly that: That some folks God created for evil. Let me try and find it by tomorrow unless someone else can. But its there. And tracer’s quote from Revelation is intended for the tribulation, God will send folks a delusion to worship the False Prophet and take “the mark”. Really, nobody really would otherwise. Does that imply God is cruel? ---
**Author:** ![filmyak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@filmyak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmyak)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/55 "2002-06-04T01:17:03Z")
I’m really not trying to be trite or offensive, but this question becomes very clear to us atheists. To paraphrase George Carlin, the biggest fraud of all time was convincing people that there is an invisible man up in the sky who watches all, knows all, sees all, demands we follow his rules (though he contradicits himself frequently), and if we don’t he sends us to eternal pain and damnation… but he loves us. If you think of most religions that believe in hell – and more specifically, that are convinced that if you don’t follow their particular rules then you are damned to hell for forever – well their thoughts lead to the conclusion that yes, god does expect the vast majority of the world to go to hell. Yet they consider this deity to be “good” and “kind.” So my answer is – god didn’t create anyone that will go to hell. It’s procreation and evolution, and when a biological machine dies then its ride is over. Not the answer you were looking for, true, but I believe in looking at every angle and this one seems to have slipped through the cracks in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/56 "2002-06-04T01:52:19Z")
vanilla wrote: > [@](#): > > And tracer’s quote from Revelation is intended for the tribulation, God will send folks a delusion to worship the False Prophet and take “the mark”. The verse wasn’t from Revelation, it was from 2nd Thessalonians, chapter 2. However, the passage **was** about the coming of an anti-christ-like figure, which is pretty similar to some of the stuff in Revelation. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/57 "2002-06-04T01:56:20Z")
… but that **still** doesn’t explain why God – who presumably wants as many people as possible to be Saved and go to Heaven – would **intentionally** delude folks into believing in a false prophet. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/58 "2002-06-04T02:18:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > I know there is a verse, somewhere in proverbs, i _think,_ that says exactly that: That some folks God created for evil. > Let me try and find it by tomorrow unless someone else can. > But its there. “The Lord works out everything for his own ends-even the wicked for a day of disaster.” – [Proverbs 16:4](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Prov+16%3A4&NIV_version=yes&language=english&x=19&y=7), New International Version (“The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil”, [New American Standard Bible](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Prov+16%3A4&NASB_version=yes&language=english&x=17&y=5); “The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil”, [King James Version](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=PROV+16:4&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on)) > [@](#): > > Does that imply God is cruel? Well, it seems pretty cruel to _me_. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2002, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/59 "2002-06-04T23:41:56Z")
Thank you MEB. I knew someone would find it. Cruel? Well, the fundies I know (and i don’t know any other kidn in real life) would say, "God gave them lots of chances, and when the rapture happens, if they still won’t accept Jesus, then it’s _their_ own fault if they go to Hell. I don’t claim to udnerstand it all. I am glad I’m saved, so supposedly God chose me; sortof like a lottery i guess, I’m not exactly worthy. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956/60 "2002-06-05T09:46:13Z")
i thought the whole dealie with God was that his nature was unknowable? anyway. this is what i was taught about freewill. bearing in mind i was taught by my hippie christian parents. imagine your life is a tree. and your choices are branches on that tree. everytime you make a choice your life branches. god can see the whole tree, he can see all the alternative lives you can have, he can see how best to help you in all of them. but he chooses not to prune the branches, because he prefers the tree natural, with all your choices your own. so he sees your life in all it’s possibilites and he lets you live that life. i think he would prefer you to make some choices more than others, but he never forces. thus it is possible to believe that every person, by making the right choices, can attain paradise, and that god puts this capability in everyone. it is thus up to the person whether they make the choices or not. sorry, does that make any sense? i’m not saying what those choices are, i have my opinion, and i’ll let others differ here. so god creates ALL people equally, with the ability to reach heaven. it is how these peoplechoose to use this ability that determnes whether they get there. and life is a balance. you cannot fully appreciate joy if you have never known sadness . i think that the verse in proverbs is saying that no evil situation is ever without a grain of good. kind of a making lemonade out of lemons thing. ying has a little yang, yang has a little ying. balance is in everything. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-god-create-people-that-he-knows-are-doomed-to-hell/111956.md?page=4)