# Why does it have to be all or nothing with abortion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2022, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939 "2022-05-04T13:56:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2022, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/181 "2022-05-06T18:46:35Z")
And the same with rape and incest exceptions. If a fetus is a person, it shouldn’t matter how the fetus was conceived. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2022, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/182 "2022-05-06T18:57:51Z")
It doesn’t. There is a general consensus in Canada that abortion is a reasonable choice for a competent woman to make on her own, appropriately early in pregnancy, except in more difficult cases. Doctors should maintain the right to their own beliefs, but place patient care first. There is some room for a spectrum if beliefs. This is not an all or nothing position, nor should it be, but this is only my opinion. This debate has gone on since before Hippocrates and Plato. A lot of people who care deeply about a single issue take more extreme positions on either side. These are amplified by the media and the antagonistic nature of law and politics. However, they do not usually represent the views of most people. ---
**Author:** ![SoToasty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sotoasty/32/2803_2.png) [@SoToasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoToasty)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2022, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/183 "2022-05-06T19:17:15Z")
I would like to see lawsuits from women who were not allowed to get an abortion for the cost of raising a child to an adult, along with punitive damages. So start with all the supreme court justices who overturned Roe, then each of the state legislators and governor of the state. Maybe start with 5 million from each women. If they can make anyone sue for having an abortion, maybe we can start the lawsuits working the other way. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2022, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/184 "2022-05-06T19:47:30Z")
> [@SoToasty](#): > > I would like to see lawsuits from women who were not allowed to get an abortion for the cost of raising a child to an adult, along with punitive damages. The thing is, most women who are functional enough to successfully raise an initially unwanted child to adulthood are compassionate enough not to want their adult child dragged into the limelight in a case like this, with the subtext “The government needs to pay me for not having been allowed to abort you like I wanted to.” As usual, conservative activists and politicians are gleefully inflicting tyrannical and cruel policies on women, while smugly relying on the expectation that the women affected won’t pass the tyranny and cruelty on to their unsuspecting children. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2022, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/185 "2022-05-06T20:39:40Z")
Or get fed up and drag those shitheads out onto the lawn for an old fashioned lynching. They rely on our humanity in order to abandon their own completely. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2022, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/186 "2022-05-06T22:06:52Z")
> [@JakeRS](#): > > Allowing women under stress and fear to just walk into a clinic without first going through a therapy session to determine the reason for such a drastic life-changing decision is equally as irresponsible and bad as not allowing abortions at all. It shouldn’t be one extremism vs the other extremism. _ **Drastic life-changing decision?** _ Having a child is a drastic, life-changing decision. For someone that doesn’t believe a fetus is a person and who doesn’t believe abortion is murder, they take a day off work for the procedure, and then they go back to the exact same unchanged life they had before. That’s kind of the point. That’s why conservatives HATE it, it involves absolutely no punishment whatsoever. Now, if they are strongly pro-life and actually do believe they murdered their baby, it might be more complicated, but it doesn’t have to be. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2022, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/187 "2022-05-06T22:57:19Z")
> [@SoToasty](#): > > I would like to see lawsuits from women who were not allowed to get an abortion for the cost of raising a child to an adult, along with punitive damages. So start with all the supreme court justices who overturned Roe, then each of the state legislators and governor of the state. I know this was semi-facetious, but there’s a broad doctrine that you can’t sue the government for duly enacting and enforcing a law: [Sovereign immunity - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity) ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2022, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/188 "2022-05-06T23:44:34Z")
That insistence men have in continually painting abortion as “drastic” and “life-changing” is a great big reason why men need to STFU and get their noses out of women’s healthcare. It’s nothing of the sort, as you point out. Hell, with the vast majority of early term abortions being chemical these days it’s not even that much of an inconvenience. Take your pill, buckle in for a really heavy period and you’re golden. Get this, men, for most women abortion is NO BIG DEAL. We don’t agonize over it, we don’t sob for days over it, we don’t freak out on our deathbed about THE BABBY WE KILT SOB SOB SOB because sensible women are aware that most of us have had a miscarriage all unknowing in our lifetimes and it’s not a big deal. Nature abandons pregnancies that aren’t viable, usually in about the same timeframe as we get abortions and for about the same reason–BECAUSE NOW IS NOT THE TIME FOR A BABY. That is IT. We don’t care if men don’t like our reasons for having abortions, we generally don’t think of men at all aside from “dammit, fucking rogue sperm again shit.” You know what we DO agonize over? How much we DON’T want a baby. How dangerous pregnancy and birth are for humans. How much fucking WORK it is to raise a child. How fucking miserably horrible it will be to be yoked to some jackass of a man just because he put it in us instead of a sock. How pregnancy and parenthood derails our life plan, fucks over our career, just isn’t what we WANT. That, we do give a lot of thought to. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2022, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/189 "2022-05-07T02:43:27Z")
Could you send this to every SC justice and every GOP legislator, please? ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2022, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/190 "2022-05-07T03:05:56Z")
If I thought it would do even the tiniest scintilla of good I would–but people are mostly ignoring the fact that these laws are mostly an attack on the right to privacy, but they work out the kinks on women and POC because if they come right outta the chute fucking over white men there will be Hell To Pay and they know it. Get the skids all greased screwing over women and POC and LGBTQ people then and only then do you set up the Big Whammy that installs the full surveillance state when it’s too late for the white men to put the kibosh on it. White men really ought to be channelling Pastor Niemoller and kicking up a giant fuss in support of women’s reproductive rights because by the time it hits them there won’t be anyone capable or willing to support them. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2022, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/191 "2022-05-07T06:57:44Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > A vote or a voice? We all have the ability to vote for systems that govern the country and we all have the ability to utilize our voice to advocate for what we wish. > > Does that mean that each decision requires a direct vote? No. It just means no one should be excluded from a debate. No, we all do not have the ability to vote. The politicians that you support have been actively working to take away the ability to vote from people who don’t vote for them. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2022, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/192 "2022-05-07T18:55:21Z")
\< jumps up for a standing ovation \> I wish I had a really big pillow with this post embroidered on it. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2022, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/193 "2022-05-07T22:16:18Z")
Boy, wouldn’t THAT make an interesting winter project? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2022, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/194 "2022-05-10T06:46:03Z")
> [@AzFavorite](#): > > if abortion is illegal women with resources will still be able to get a safe illegal termination, only poor women will be in situations that cause desperation and death and interstate travel. Not a band name but an album name instead: _Desperation, Death and Interstate Travel_ > [@Joey\_P](#): > > Should we also force them to get a transvaginal ultrasound as part of this therapy? …aaaaaaaaaaaand here’s the band that recorded the album: **Transvaginal Ultrasound** ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2022, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/195 "2022-05-10T12:25:14Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Desperation, Death and Interstate Travel Sounds like a Stone Temple Pilots song. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2022, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/196 "2022-06-01T21:11:35Z")
This is a really excellent post. Just one minor nitpick: the number of healthy newborn babies who are given up for adoption in America and don’t find homes is zero. A generation ago it was difficult to place non-white babies, but at least we seem to have moved on from there, thank God. Of course, that doesn’t remotely mean that women should be obligated to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term. and it doesn’t help the kids who do have health problems. But it does mean that a woman contemplating her options doesn’t need to worry that choosing adoption could lead to their kid getting stuck in the foster care system. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2022, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/197 "2022-06-01T22:12:00Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > But it does mean that a woman contemplating her options doesn’t need to worry that choosing adoption could lead to their kid getting stuck in the foster care system. If the overturning of Roe makes abortions significantly more difficult to get, of course, especially for poor women at high risk for pre-natal health problems, that could significantly change. About half of all women who seek abortion in the US now are below the poverty line. Making abortion substantially more difficult to get isn’t going to improve those women’s circumstances or make it easier for them to raise an unwanted baby. Nor will it make their unwanted babies (especially those with health impairments) more desirable to adoptive parents. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2022, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/198 "2022-06-01T22:33:31Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > This is a really excellent post. Just one minor nitpick: the number of healthy newborn babies who are given up for adoption in America and don’t find homes is zero. And the ones that _aren’t_ perfect? The ones with vision problems or hearing problems or maybe less than the ideal number of fingers and toes? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2022, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/199 "2022-06-03T12:31:29Z")
And, add another 500k babies to the pile if abortion is really banned. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2022, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/200 "2022-06-03T15:01:25Z")
It’ll just shift to other states, which is what [Texas has seen](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/06/upshot/texas-abortion-women-data.html). The number performed in state dropped by over half but women who had any sort of means found alternatives so the number of women who got them dropped by less than 10%. And presumably even these 10% would mostly be the women who were the poorest and least able to access medical care or leave the state. So those folks have been mostly right about what would happen. While it may stem some abortions, the effect mostly appears to be the pre-Roe status quo where women with any means find alternatives and the poorest are left with an array of unsavory alternatives. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939.md?page=11)