# Why does it have to be all or nothing with abortion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2022, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939 "2022-05-04T13:56:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/101 "2022-05-05T16:08:18Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s not how a democracy works. Everyone gets a voice in everything. Suppose I’m charged with murder. Does everyone get a vote on whether I should be executed? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/102 "2022-05-05T16:14:36Z")
Which is it? “Everyone gets a voice in everything.” or “We are not a Democracy, we are a Republic!” Can’t be both things at the same time. Seems to me it’s more - “everyone on my side gets a voice, and nobody on your side does”. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/103 "2022-05-05T16:18:35Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Suppose I’m charged with murder. Does everyone get a vote on whether I should be executed? You are looking for logic and consistency in the wrong place. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/104 "2022-05-05T16:28:59Z")
A vote or a voice? We all have the ability to vote for systems that govern the country and we all have the ability to utilize our voice to advocate for what we wish. Does that mean that each decision requires a direct vote? No. It just means no one should be excluded from a debate. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/105 "2022-05-05T16:49:01Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > We all have the ability to vote for systems that govern the country Unless that ability is being deliberately interfered with by disenfranchisers, for example. It’s easy for comfortable white middle-class people in the US to exercise our voting rights, but that’s not so easy for all of our fellow citizens. > [@octopus](#): > > and we all have the ability to utilize our voice to advocate for what we wish. > > Does that mean that each decision requires a direct vote? No. It just means no one should be excluded from a debate. What does “no one should be excluded from a debate” even mean? Obviously, constitutional protections on freedom of speech mean that nobody can be entirely excluded from public discourse, no matter what their views are. But that doesn’t mean that every forum for every debate is legally or constitutionally or ethically required to include all possible viewpoints. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/106 "2022-05-05T16:53:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > What does “no one should be excluded from a debate” even mean? Obviously, constitutional protections on freedom of speech mean that nobody can be entirely excluded from public discourse, no matter what their views are. But that doesn’t mean that every forum for every debate is legally or constitutionally or ethically required to include all possible viewpoints. It means that one shouldn’t be, in general, silenced from voicing opinions on a subject, such as abortion, even if one doesn’t have a fully functioning uterus or whatever. Obviously, private entities currently have _some_ room for discretion. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/107 "2022-05-05T16:57:58Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It means that one shouldn’t be, in general, silenced from voicing opinions on a subject, such as abortion, even if one doesn’t have a fully functioning uterus or whatever. Nobody is “silencing” anyone from “voicing opinions on a subject”. The post by SmartAleq you responded to was expressing the opinion that some opinions on some subjects are not worth hearing, but that’s a valid use of her own freedom of speech. Quit trying to silence her, yeah? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/108 "2022-05-05T17:02:07Z")
Nobody was silenced. You are are trying to silence criticism of a view you like. That’s trying to dominate the conversation. That isn’t having a voice. Getting one’s way and having a voice are different things. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/109 "2022-05-05T17:04:39Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nobody is “silencing” anyone from “voicing opinions on a subject”. The post by SmartAleq you responded to was expressing the opinion that some opinions on some subjects are not worth hearing, but that’s a valid use of her own freedom of speech. Quit trying to silence her, yeah? > [@Airbeck](#): > > Nobody was silenced. You are are trying to silence criticism of a view you like. That’s trying to dominate the conversation. That isn’t having a voice. Getting one’s way and having a voice are different things. Advocating a position is not the same as silencing the opposing point of view. In my mind, people are free to speak and write as they wish. The fact that I disagree with those who believe otherwise does not mean I advocate taking away their liberty even if they use their liberty to advocate restricting mine. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/110 "2022-05-05T17:06:57Z")
You think you are the one who is having their liberty restricted? Really?? It would be laughable, if this whole subject wasn’t so awful. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/111 "2022-05-05T17:08:19Z")
Yeah, I can’t count the number of times that participants in, e.g., gun rights threads have expressed the view that gun-control advocates who don’t know this or that technical detail about guns should STFU and stop intruding their ignorance into the discussion. If people want to go on expressing their opinions where they’re officially entitled to do so, they can do so even if other people tell them their opinions aren’t wanted. You have a right to expect that other participants in a discussion forum will abide by official forum rules, but not that they will necessarily be welcoming or encouraging toward your participation in the discussion. > [@octopus](#): > > In my mind, people are free to speak and write as they wish. As long as they’re not being “potty mouths”, right? That often seems to upset you in other people’s speaking and writing as they wish. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/112 "2022-05-05T17:12:16Z")
A democratic majority does not enjoy the ability to vote away the inalienable rights of the minority. Is a woman’s right to safety control her own reproductive capacity an inalienable right? I think so. Is a human fetus a human being? Don’t all human beings have inalienable rights? I think so also. Why is the USA unique among so many other democracies in our contention and unilateralism on the issue of abortion? (And is it coincidental that in X% of its utterances, in the US, “freedom” is a cover word with “private property?” Since the lack of a social safety net is what’s really behind the “all or nothing.”) ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/113 "2022-05-05T17:13:35Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > they use their liberty to advocate restricting mine. Must be tough facing the prospect of having your freedom to act taken away. I wonder if those pro-choice activists understand that? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/114 "2022-05-05T17:24:23Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Why is the USA unique among so many other democracies in our contention and unilateralism on the issue of abortion? Because we are set up with such a fear of a “tyranny of the majority”, that they have set things up so that we are beholden to the tyranny of the minority. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/115 "2022-05-05T17:54:14Z")
> [@AzFavorite](#): > > i doubt anyone is being forced to terminate a pregnancy against their will. > And your suggestions about therapists and automatic mandated abortions are really way,way out there. That’s the point. People who say that abortion’s a life altering decision that shouldn’t be made without therapy generally entirely assume that the even more life altering decision to carry a pregnancy to term can and should be made without any assistance. > [@filmore](#): > > There are people who throw their newborns in the trash. I don’t see why they those same people wouldn’t get an abortion at 8.99 months. I suspect those are people who found it difficult to get an abortion at three months; or people who didn’t realize they were pregnant at all until they gave birth. > [@filmore](#): > > There are some people out there who would have an abortion at 8.99 months because they are going on vacation and can’t fly if they are pregnant. No. They’d have an induced birth. Induced births are very common in the USA. The reason late abortion needs to be legal, and legal without time-consuming restrictions piled on top of it, is that occasionally it’s discovered very late in the pregnancy that the fetus can’t possibly be viable and/or that the pregnancy is hazardous to the mother and ordinary birth or caesarian procedures are also hazardous to the mother. These are rare instances and generally emergencies. A restriction that late abortions (as opposed to induced or caesarean births intended to if possible produce a live child) can only be performed in such circumstances is reasonable – but the decision that those are indeed such circumstances needs to be left to the doctor and patient, with only ordinary malpractice/hospital ethics procedures as remedies if the doctor was wrong. > [@octopus](#): > > That’s not how a democracy works. Everyone gets a voice in everything. Do I get a voice in what you’re going to have for dinner tonight? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/116 "2022-05-05T19:09:11Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > In my mind, A fanciful locale of diminutive proportions, populated only by tiny spiders and toxic fumes. Twist yourself into a Gordian Knot and disappear into whatever interdimensional crevice your foul, stinking form emerged from. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/117 "2022-05-05T19:37:15Z")
**Modnote** : This is GD not the Pit, please refrain from attacking the poster and not the post. This is not a warning. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/118 "2022-05-05T20:03:59Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > _[Skinner v Oklahoma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinner_v._Oklahoma)_ (1942) > Or maybe not That’s based on court precedent, and in the last week we’ve seen how much weight the supreme court gives that. The right to reproduce is not enumerated among the constitutional rights, so its fair game up to the whim of 5 justices. ---
**Author:** ![EastUmpqua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eastumpqua/32/6025_2.png) [@EastUmpqua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EastUmpqua)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/119 "2022-05-05T20:09:33Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > All those that self-descibed ‘conservatives’ deem it necessary to vet despite otherwise being opposed to having government intrude on the private lives of citizens. The paradox is lost in the weeping and wailing over the moral panic of lost souls. I would suspect most self-described “conservatives” aren’t apposed to having government intrude on the private lives of citizens when a human life is taken (i.e. police). The controversy about abortion is the result of different definitions of human life. Why shouldn’t this kind of legislation (abortion) be at the state level? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/120 "2022-05-05T20:14:28Z")
Defining personhood on a state by state basis? That seems…ill-advised. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939.md?page=7)