# Why does it have to be all or nothing with abortion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 4, 2022, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939 "2022-05-04T13:56:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![EastUmpqua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eastumpqua/32/6025_2.png) [@EastUmpqua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EastUmpqua)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/141 "2022-05-05T21:40:10Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > No. Abortion rights _are_ reproductive rights. It seems like there’s a big difference between [Female infanticide in China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide_in_China), and US abortion rights. Even if both are reproductive rights. What I’m saying is that there is a point when a fetus becomes a person, and I’m not sure if that’s only after birth. Are there any state abortion laws that don’t take rape and incest into consideration? Do any states regulate late-term abortions? Why would that change if abortion legislation was at the state level? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/142 "2022-05-05T21:40:37Z")
> [@EastUmpqua](#): > > Just for the sake of argument, when should the woman (or husband) be able to abort a life they’ve created? […] It’s obvious in cases of rape or incest. When it’s birth control, it’s less obvious. What’s so “obvious” about “cases of rape or incest”? If your argument against abortion is that it’s the murder of a human person, isn’t a human person created via rape or incest just as much entitled to life as one created any other way? If an embryo or early-term fetus is not considered the same as a human person, on the other hand, then it’s obvious that anybody who’s in the early stages of pregnancy and doesn’t want to be pregnant should be able to get an abortion for any reason they wish. Even if they’re relying on abortion as “birth control” (kind of a straw argument anyway, because most people who don’t want pregnancy do use actual birth control). Somebody’s motives for terminating an early-term pregnancy, or the circumstances under which that pregnancy began, are irrelevant to that person’s right to terminate the pregnancy in their own body. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/143 "2022-05-05T21:43:21Z")
> [@EastUmpqua](#): > > It seems like there’s a big difference between [Female infanticide in China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_infanticide_in_China), and US abortion rights. And yet, they both come from the government telling the people what they may and may not do with their reproductive systems. You wanna open a door, that’s fine, just remember it opens both ways. ---
**Author:** ![EastUmpqua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eastumpqua/32/6025_2.png) [@EastUmpqua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EastUmpqua)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/144 "2022-05-05T21:46:16Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > What’s so “obvious” about “cases of rape or incest”? If your argument against abortion is that it’s the murder of a human person, isn’t a human person created via rape or incest just as much entitled to life as one created any other way? I think this is the OP’s question. If you actually think rape or incest is a way to create a human life, then you’ve misunderstood the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/145 "2022-05-05T21:46:36Z")
> [@EastUmpqua](#): > > What I’m saying is that there is a point when a fetus becomes a person, and I’m not sure if that’s only after birth. Are there any state abortion laws that don’t take rape and incest into consideration? Do any states regulate late-term abortions? You’re conflating two different issues here: 1. Is there a point in pregnancy before the moment of birth when it’s appropriate to start considering the fetus a fully human person who has a right not to be killed unless the life or health of the person carrying the fetus is at risk? (Yes, and all current abortion legislation in all states, following the guidance in the Supreme Court’s Roe decision, acknowledges that the right to choose an abortion can be more narrowly restricted later on in pregnancy.) 2. Does an embryo or early-term fetus have different levels of rights depending on whether it was conceived as a result of rape/incest or voluntary sex? (Although some legislative abortion bans do allow rape or incest exceptions, from a fetal-personhood point of view that’s obviously shameless hypocrisy, unless you really believe that someone who was conceived as a result of rape is less of a human person than someone conceived in consensual sex.) > [@EastUmpqua](#): > > If you actually think rape or incest is a way to create a human life, then you’ve misunderstood the discussion. What?? There are already-born people living among us everywhere every day who were conceived as a result of rape, marital or otherwise. Are you really trying to claim that those people are somehow not really human?! It sounds like what you’re trying to do here is a feeble attempt at justifying the shameless hypocrisy that wants to ban abortion on the grounds that “abortion is murder”, but nonetheless doesn’t like the optics of forcing a rape victim to carry and bear the rapist’s child. Even though, of course, that child is just as much a human person as any other child. ---
**Author:** ![EastUmpqua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eastumpqua/32/6025_2.png) [@EastUmpqua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EastUmpqua)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/146 "2022-05-05T21:51:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > What?? There are already-born people living among us everywhere every day who were conceived as a result of rape, marital or otherwise. Are you really trying to claim that those people are somehow not really human?! You’re right. I think this is the most difficult part of the abortion discussion. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/147 "2022-05-05T21:53:00Z")
I know how to simplify it. Keep decisions about abortion between a pregnant person and their doctor. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/148 "2022-05-05T21:57:52Z")
> [@EastUmpqua](#): > > The right to have an abortion is unique. How so? Unique to what? > [@EastUmpqua](#): > > Why would that have anything to do with gay marriage, privacy concerns, or access to birth control Because Roe V Wade hinged on your Right To Privacy. After that, other cases used that as leverage (like same sex marriage). If Roe v Wade is overturned, the other cases may follow suit. That’s may very, very general/basic understanding of it. I don’t have good grasp on the ins and outs of supreme court rulings, but if you poke around online, there’s a zillion articles covering this exact issue. > [@EastUmpqua](#): > > Just for the sake of argument, when should the woman (or husband) be able to abort a life they’ve created? For the sake of argument, whenever they want. In practice, it’s none of my business. Sidenote: I find it interesting that you bring the father into the discussion. While I have thoughts about the father’s role in abortion decisions, they’re of no consequence. Also, what actually caught my attention about that quote was that you didn’t refer to him as the father, but questioned what her “husband’s” role in her abortion should be. Don’t assume that all, or even most, pregnant women seeking an abortion are married or even that the father is present in her life. Legally, IMvHO, the father’s role in an abortion decision is should be about the same as her significant other’s role in her decision to do anything else she wants to do. A woman should never, ever, ever be required to have a man’s permission to make a decision about herself. Chipping away at bodily autonomy is a slope this country doesn’t slide down (and more than it already has). ---
**Author:** ![Drsunflower1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drsunflower1/32/12711_2.png) [@Drsunflower1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drsunflower1)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/149 "2022-05-05T22:00:17Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Somebody’s motives for terminating an early-term pregnancy, or the circumstances under which that pregnancy began, are irrelevant to that person’s right to terminate the pregnancy in their own body. A thousand times this > [@k9bfriender](#): > > You wanna open a door, that’s fine, just remember it opens both ways. Compare for example Aktion T4. Also government policy. Or the procreation policies in Romania under Ceaușescu . As said, abortion is one expression of the right to self-determination. As is birth control, or the right not to have sex at all. It really is that simple. Or should be at least. ---
**Author:** ![EastUmpqua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eastumpqua/32/6025_2.png) [@EastUmpqua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EastUmpqua)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/150 "2022-05-05T22:04:02Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > > [@EastUmpqua](#): > > > > The right to have an abortion is unique. > > How so? Unique to what? It’s the only way to legally end a human life. > [@Joey\_P](#): > > Because Roe V Wade hinged on your Right To Privacy. After that, other cases used that as leverage (like same sex marriage). If Roe v Wade is overturned, the other cases may follow suit. I don’t understand this. I’ll do some reading. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/151 "2022-05-05T22:05:19Z")
> [@EastUmpqua](#): > > It’s the only way to legally end a human life. Wrong. Even accepting for the sake of argument that abortion ends a human life, does the name Terri Schiavo ring any bells? ---
**Author:** ![EastUmpqua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eastumpqua/32/6025_2.png) [@EastUmpqua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EastUmpqua)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/152 "2022-05-05T22:06:18Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Even accepting for the sake of argument that abortion ends a human life, does the name Terri Schiavo ring any bells? Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Drsunflower1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drsunflower1/32/12711_2.png) [@Drsunflower1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drsunflower1)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/153 "2022-05-05T22:07:35Z")
Plus there are countries where euthanasia and assisted suicide are legal, given the legal prerequisites are met. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/154 "2022-05-05T22:08:20Z")
> [@EastUmpqua](#): > > It’s the only way to legally end a human life. Walk uninvited into a strangers home in a red state in the middle of the night. It’s likely that someone will end your life, and they will do so completely legally. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/155 "2022-05-05T22:08:38Z")
> [@JakeRS](#): > > It’s not even that hard, imagine this, abortion allowed for everyone, but: > > 1. In case of teenage pregnancies, violent, medical,etc. reasons it’s automatically done Why should it be _automatic_ that teen pregnancies be aborted? Are you aware that not all victims of rape or violence want to abort when pregnant? That women with real medical reasons to terminate might opt instead to risk their lives to give birth? You’re depriving women of _choice_. Of agency. You’re basically saying they don’t know what’s good for them so someone else needs to step in and set those silly women straight. Here’s my anecdote to counter yours: my mother suffered from significant cardiac disease from a very young age (she started suffering from angina in her 20’s). When she was pregnant with her last child (me, as it happens) in pre-_Roe_ Missouri her medical issues were severe enough that she was offered the option of terminating her pregnancy despite Missouri largely banning the procedure. So she definitely had a significant risk. Yet she chose to carry me to term. _Her choice_. As it should be. No woman should be forced to be pregnant and no woman should be forced to abort. > [@JakeRS](#): > > In cases where the parents simply aren’t sure if they want a baby, if they will afford to be parents and so on, 2 or 3 rounds of therapy meetings are held. If the underlying reasons aren’t solved and the person still wants to go through with it, they are still allowed to. Oh, how freakin’ _patronizing_. You’re saying pregnant people aren’t capable of making their own decisions. Again, _patronizing_. Also infantalizing. What if the problem isn’t solvable? What if one parent is a carrier of a genetic defect they absolutely do not want to pass on? What if a person is _absolutely sure_ they don’t want a baby, ever? > [@JakeRS](#): > > During these therapies the psychiatrists could try to find the reason why someone wants the abortion and in case it’s just fear of becoming a parent, they try to encourage them or help with any such issues. If someone is afraid of being a parent WTF is it important to you if they get over that or not? > [@JakeRS](#): > > Maybe the person doesn’t actually want to do the abortion, but is forced to by poor living standards and poverty. In such cases the therapists could offer the idea of giving the baby up for adoption with or without keeping in touch with it later, maybe even organize meetings with would-be adoptive parents that can’t have kids of their own. Maybe the person actually DOES want the abortion, whether wealthy or poor or in between. Why should someone be forced to be a brood mare/walking uterus for someone else? Yes, adoption should always be an _option_. Along with other options. But the decision should be that of the person who will actually be pregnant and give birth. > [@JakeRS](#): > > I had a perfectly normal and happy childhood and didn’t even know about all this until I was an adult. Who knows how many other kids could have had equally good or better childhoods if they didn’t just become a statistic. Are you aware of how many children in the US are NOT adopted? The less than perfect ones? The not-quite-white-enough ones? The fallen-through-the-cracks? You had an excellent outcome. Bravo. I am truly and sincerely happy for you but what you enjoyed is not a universal for children whose birth mother/parents were unwilling or unable to raise them. > [@JakeRS](#): > > Allowing women under stress and fear to just walk into a clinic without first going through a therapy session to determine the reason for such a drastic life-changing decision is equally as irresponsible and bad as not allowing abortions at all. If you can’t handle stress and fear you have no business being a parent, because I guarantee that stress and fear do not stop at birth. But again, you demean women by implying they are incapable of handling such a situation. I have known quite a few women who both chose abortion and didn’t choose abortion. BOTH are life-changing decisions. Why do you assume that choosing to give birth is _less_ life-changing or less stressful or less fear-inducing than getting an abortion? By and large, women seeking either abortions or to continue a pregnancy don’t need “therapy” to understand their decision, or make it. “I can’t afford a child/another child” isn’t going to be “cured” by therapy, as just one example. How arrogant you are to presume adult human beings who are pregnant are incapable of making these decisions. What makes YOU more qualified than the people who are actually pregnant? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/156 "2022-05-05T22:11:37Z")
> [@EastUmpqua](#): > > It’s the only way to legally end a human life. Except for assisted suicide, unassisted suicide, death penalty, self defense, war etc. But ignoring that for a moment, keep in mind the ramifications of your wording there. I’m assuming it wasn’t intentional, but you said ‘human life’ implying that the fetus is a human life…when did it become one? Conception? Heart Beat? X weeks of gestation? ---
**Author:** ![EastUmpqua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eastumpqua/32/6025_2.png) [@EastUmpqua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EastUmpqua)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/157 "2022-05-05T22:12:30Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Walk uninvited into a strangers home in a red state in the middle of the night. You’re right. That might even happen in a blue state. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/158 "2022-05-05T22:14:20Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@JakeRS](#): > > > > It’s not even that hard, imagine this, abortion allowed for everyone, but: > > > > > 1. In case of teenage pregnancies, violent, medical,etc. reasons it’s automatically done > > Why should it be _automatic_ that teen pregnancies be aborted? I’ve seen this said a few times. I’m making an assumption here, but I assume Jake didn’t mean the abortion was automatically done, but the woman was automatically allowed to have one under his system which would otherwise require therapy. To be clear, I don’t agree with the therapy thing, I think it’s an awful idea, but we should make sure we’re arguing against it for the correct reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/159 "2022-05-05T22:14:44Z")
Not to mention the undisputed legality of capital punishment in many jurisdictions, and the undisputed legality pretty much anywhere of taking human life in self-defense. I think the whole issue becomes much clearer when we look at human personhood as something that develops gradually over gestation, rather than demanding compliance with religious dogmas about “ensoulment” or other doctrines requiring immediate full personhood to somehow happen instantaneously at fertilization. If human personhood is a gradual development during fetal growth, then it’s perfectly reasonable to say that someone who doesn’t want to be pregnant may choose to terminate the pregnancy during the early stages of development. Some people have a religious or other supernatural belief that full human personhood is somehow immediately conferred at the moment of fertilization, and therefore they understandably want to reduce the incidence of abortion. ISTM that the best way to do that is to massively increase the availability and public awareness of reliable contraception. (As well as increasing resources for pre- and post-natal care and support, so that people who actually would be willing to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term aren’t driven to terminate it simply for lack of resources.) ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2022, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939/160 "2022-05-05T22:53:06Z")
Not to mention people like Carl Wayne Buntion, John Dillinger, Travon Martin, and Osama Bin Laden. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-have-to-be-all-or-nothing-with-abortion/963939.md?page=9)