# Why does it seem like women do less bad things than men? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 30, 2016, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443 "2016-11-30T03:51:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/41 "2016-11-30T17:38:23Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > That, and the fact that from babyhood on, boys are taught that expressing themselves through violence is, if not “okay”, at least to be expected. “Oh, he’s such a rough-and-tumble little dude”, “The reason he’s mean to you is because he likes you.” And they’re also taught _not_ to express their emotions any other way, that even _having_ emotions beyond lust and rage - the ones that are testosterone-influenced - is unmanly and therefore bad. That is ridiculous. And contrary to actual occurrences. Not only are boys not encouraged to fight and express violence, caregiver take extra care to suppress these tendencies, often with severe sanction or perhaps more wisely through guidance. Aggression, rule breaking and fighting in young males as an analogy is seen like a cold is in human health, something which will happen, so don’t panic about it, but is not a desirable state of affairs and needs to dealt with when it occurs/avoded. Pretty much all programs aimed at young boys are designed to get them to control these impulses, from sports, to scouting. If these were “expected” as you state, then people would simply let it flourish. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/42 "2016-11-30T17:48:20Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Also, society rewards men who defy convention more than women - in the form of the appeal of “Bad Boys”. No.There is one cohort which society rewards for defying convention and that is young to early middle age men. Perhaps not coincidentally, they are also the most expendable cohort in society. For a significant proportion of this cohort,while the risks are high, so is the reward. For women of the same age, the rewards for taking a risk are less and the potential adverse outcomes probably don’t make it worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/43 "2016-11-30T18:04:20Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > No.There is one cohort which society rewards for defying convention and that is young to early middle age men. Perhaps not coincidentally, they are also the most expendable cohort in society. For a significant proportion of this cohort,while the risks are high, so is the reward. For women of the same age, the rewards for taking a risk are less and the potential adverse outcomes probably don’t make it worth it. I’m not going to quibble whether it’s limited to this cohort as you say. Because this happens to be the exact same cohort which does most of the “bad things” that the OP is focused on. So even if you’re correct, it’s a moot point for this thread. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/44 "2016-11-30T18:22:37Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m not going to quibble whether it’s limited to this cohort as you say. Because this happens to be the exact same cohort which does most of the “bad things” that the OP is focused on. So even if you’re correct, it’s a moot point for this thread. Actually, the line between the two things can be fairly blurry. As Richard Branson’s Headmaster once told him “Y_ou will either go to prison or become a millionaire"_ ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/45 "2016-11-30T19:07:52Z")
> [@femmejean](#): > > No offense but this seems to me like self justification bias. > > The fact is, male aggression due to mostly biological factors and social factors causes problems in society. Most mass shooters are male, Most wife beaters are men, the 19 hijacker’s on 9/11 were men, most homophobic. transphobic violence is caused by men. I know someone will say ‘Oh but think of all the firefighters on 9/11, they were all men!’ True but the point is, reducing male violence would reduce the need for male saviors. > > IMO, If today’s world was still in the middle ages people with no technological developments, people would still be trying to justify the need for ‘masculinity’ forced on men. I’m not saying men are useless but the idea that we need men to invent is just BS. > > An interesting question about mass shooters specifically Elliot Rodger; would he have gone on a mass shooting if he was female? His sister hasn’t done anything criminal. What about Kip Krinkel? He had a sister who’s not in jail and didn’t murder anyone? If their parents both had two daughters, a few people would probably be alive. No offense taken, but there was a bit more to my point than we need men to invent (and also construct) things. The point was that overall the world has benefitted more by the positive things men have done than by the negative ones. It’s true that mass shooters, airplane hijackers, transexual and homosexual aggressors and wife beaters are almost always men, but in the grand scheme of things their percentage as a percentage of men on the whole is probably insignificant. In other words, there are approximately 3.5 billion men in the world right now, and of those how many would you say are mass shooters, beaters of transexuals, etc. A very small percentage I would imagine, and whatever wrongdoing they’re involved in is localized and insignificant to all but their immediate victims. And yet how many people are living in large and small cities built by men, occupying buildings put up by men, traveling in cars made by men on roads built by men, and being healed of or treated for ailments and disease because of research and equipment and knowledge developed by men? And how many are good and loving and supportive husbands and fathers who devote much of their lives to the comfort and well-being of their wives and children? None of this is to say that the violent or stupid things men do because of testosterone or some other motivator is okay and should be accepted and overlooked because it’s obvious that they shouldn’t. But I think it’s important to keep things in perspective and not condemn men as whole as behaving in negative ways that in reality apply to only a few. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/46 "2016-11-30T19:08:08Z")
> [@doubleminus](#): > > You may like [the discussion between Camille Paglia and Christina Hoff Sommers](https://youtu.be/iv7LvRhvgNI?t=689) I tried, but I have a very limited tolerance for Camille Paglia and I couldn’t get through it. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/47 "2016-11-30T19:19:42Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > That is ridiculous. And contrary to actual occurrences. Not only are boys not encouraged to fight and express violence, caregiver take extra care to suppress these tendencies, often with severe sanction or perhaps more wisely through guidance. Aggression, rule breaking and fighting in young males as an analogy is seen like a cold is in human health, something which will happen, so don’t panic about it, but is not a desirable state of affairs and needs to dealt with when it occurs/avoded. > > Pretty much all programs aimed at young boys are designed to get them to control these impulses, from sports, to scouting. If these were “expected” as you state, then people would simply let it flourish. I don’t know… I think a lot of what you say backs up Maggie’s point. We expect boys to play football, not girls. It’s violent, but not inappropriately violent. And we don’t ask boys to learn needlepoint do we? No, that’s a girl’s activity. Boys are violent, we all know that, so they shouldn’t sit inside and talk about their feelings. They should be outside practicing aggression. They just shouldn’t be too violent. And when you get a boy who is totally nonviolent? Maybe he’s gay. And weak. Too intellectual. Definitely a flawed moral character. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/48 "2016-11-30T19:34:46Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > What I remember quite clearly from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd grade was that for girls, being good was considered an active state, holding one’s self up to a standard of social expectations; being bad, for girls, was a weak and passive state, a sad and pathetic failure to monitor one’s own behavior and display the maturity to control it. But for boys, being good was a passive state, a state of being intimidated into not expressing one’s natural bad-boy self and instead, due to fear of authoritarian consequences, being cowed into submission; being bad was active, affirmative, being rebellious and true to one’s bad-boy self. > > Gender is a thing. Seriously. It’s not just the plumbing you got between your legs and some hormonal differences. It’s a social institution. It shapes stuff, it colors things. As always, I’m impressed with your perspective on things. I’d never encountered this way of looking at it. It makes a lot of sense. As a teacher, it gives me a lot to think about in terms of how I teach and interact with kids. Thanks. BTW, what do you think is the source of this dichotomy? Is this the way parents and teachers thought, who imposed it on the children? Did the children draw these conclusions themselves (and in response to their own feelings and urges, or to the reaction adults had to them)? Or was it, like a lot of gender role stuff, largely absorbed passively by everyone from the culture at large, even when parents and teachers may have consciously tried to counter it? ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/49 "2016-11-30T19:45:55Z")
[Men go to more extremes than women. Nature takes more chances with a male embryo then a female embryo.](http://biology.stackexchange.com/questions/1575/do-men-have-more-extreme-variations-than-women) It tries something, some variation. If it doesn’t work, the chance of continuing that particular male line went from 0,5 to 0. Not a great difference, as during history, half of men did not live long enough to see progeny anyway. But if your variation DOES work, Nature might have created a Djenghis Khan and have hundreds of progeny. Nature takes less risks with a female embryo. Good is good enough. Extreme variations in the traits of a woman will not mean more reproductive success. > [@](#): > > People can point to plenty of data that the average IQ of adult men is about the same as the average for women. So to suggest that men are smarter than women is wrong. No wonder some women were offended. > There are more males than females with really low IQs. Indeed, the pattern with mental retardation is the same as with genius, namely that as you go from mild to medium to extreme, the preponderance of males gets bigger. > Almost certainly, it is something biological and genetic. And my guess is that the greater proportion of men at both extremes of the IQ distribution is part of the same pattern. > Nature rolls the dice with men more than women. Men go to extremes more than women. It’s true not just with IQ but also with other things, even height: The male distribution of height is flatter, with more really tall and really short men. ---
**Author:** ![protoboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@protoboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/protoboard)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/50 "2016-11-30T21:19:54Z")
> [@Doubticus](#): > > Testosterone is the main reason. Also given males generally larger physical stature they are more likely to exploit their advantage when angry. In cases where women have a physical advantage, like adult women verses children, you see that women kill more children than men. Actually women kill their _own_ children at similar rates to men (I think it’s about the same or slightly lower) but 80% of children killed by non-parents are killed by men. ---
**Author:** ![protoboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@protoboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/protoboard)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/51 "2016-11-30T21:22:52Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I recall a saying - something to the effect of - _“Women don’t go bad as often as men, but when they do, they are worse than bad men.”_ > > Not in the sense of serial killers, but more in the sense of malice or emotional bullying or the desire to cause suffering and in ingenious ways. Karla Homolka was just as bad if not worse than your typical male serial killer. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/52 "2016-11-30T22:23:45Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > [QUOTE=AHunter3] > AHunter3 View Post > What I remember quite clearly from 1st, 2nd, and 3rd grade was that for girls, being good was considered an active state, holding one’s self up to a standard of social expectations; being bad, for girls, was a weak and passive state, a sad and pathetic failure to monitor one’s own behavior and display the maturity to control it. But for boys, being good was a passive state, a state of being intimidated into not expressing one’s natural bad-boy self and instead, due to fear of authoritarian consequences, being cowed into submission; being bad was active, affirmative, being rebellious and true to one’s bad-boy self. > > Gender is a thing. Seriously. It’s not just the plumbing you got between your legs and some hormonal differences. It’s a social institution. It shapes stuff, it colors things. As always, I’m impressed with your perspective on things. I’d never encountered this way of looking at it. It makes a lot of sense. As a teacher, it gives me a lot to think about in terms of how I teach and interact with kids. Thanks. BTW, what do you think is the source of this dichotomy? Is this the way parents and teachers thought, who imposed it on the children? Did the children draw these conclusions themselves (and in response to their own feelings and urges, or to the reaction adults had to them)? Or was it, like a lot of gender role stuff, largely absorbed passively by everyone from the culture at large, even when parents and teachers may have consciously tried to counter it? [/QUOTE] Thanks 🙂 The source or origin of this is something I have notions and ideas about but they’re all interwoven with theories about the origins of patriarchy. • Think of the girls as having been “sold a bill of goods”, promised (in essence) that if they comport themselves responsibly, they will be viewed as responsible, trusted with responsibilities and, by implication, will be allowed fuller participation in society than those who do not do this successfully. That doesn’t happen, or not very much. What happens is that their obedient and cooperative way of interacting with the social structures around them (like school etc) is convenient, and the girls can be used (given responsibilities) but they don’t get vested with much meaningful authority. • Think of the children in general as children would consider their own situation. Children often find schools, churches, and other institutions to be oppressive, to be places where they don’t get to do as they please but instead are subjected to a lot of things involuntarily. Some of that is probably intrinsic and inevitable (you can’t entirely liberate children from adult authority, not without the risk of four-year-olds playing in the street and getting hit by cars etc), but the _degree_ to which we disempower children is obvious (to children) as bullshit. The boys are typically NOT being sold that same bill of goods; they get the stick, not the carrot. So that foments rebellion. • There is a mixed attitude towards rebellious disobedient boy-children, and it becomes more so as they get older. There is real disapproval for their disruptiveness, destructiveness, noise and violence, but there is also a substantial amount of semi-grudging approval and admiration because the rebellious boy is seen as asserting himself. • Boys like me — nice boys, girlish boys —were also substantially buying into the girls’ “bill of good” deal. To be quite honest, we wanted social power and fell into this trap, thinking that by being well-behaved and good citizens we would be the social leaders as adults. Feminine boys can be sort of snobby about ourselves as moral standouts, good people. We make fine ministers, we do. We get less recognition than the girls when we’re young (because, being male, we are widely perceived as being good out of fear of consequences, as discussed above). When we get older, some of us are (or remain) resentful of girls and women and we can be some really misogynistic shits instead of continuing to feel like we’re in the same boat with the girlfolks. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/53 "2016-11-30T22:53:06Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > • Boys like me — nice boys, girlish boys —were also substantially buying into the girls’ “bill of good” deal. To be quite honest, we wanted social power and fell into this trap, thinking that by being well-behaved and good citizens we would be the social leaders as adults. Feminine boys can be sort of snobby about ourselves as moral standouts, good people. We make fine ministers, we do. We get less recognition than the girls when we’re young (because, being male, we are widely perceived as being good out of fear of consequences, as discussed above). When we get older, some of us are (or remain) resentful of girls and women and we can be some really misogynistic shits instead of continuing to feel like we’re in the same boat with the girlfolks. Interesting post. Thanks! I don’t know if I’ve mentioned this before, but I identify very much with the things you’ve written here and in other threads about being a “good” boy as a child. I never considered myself feminine or girly, though as I got older I sometimes judged myself negatively as being unmasculine. I also found myself as a child in elementary school feeling more kinship with the well-behaved girls than the rebellious and rambunctious boys. And yes, I was definitely a snob about it. I even went to school to become a minister, though my skeptical and rationalist nature eventually won out. Fortunately I’ve avoided the misogyny trap you mentioned, though I can’t say I feel the same kinship for women (“we’re in the same boat”) that you do or that I did before puberty. It’s interesting to me that for you, this seems to have become a large part of your identity and how you see yourself, whereas for me, it’s something that, while I’ve been aware of it, never seemed that important. I think (IIRC) that you’ve described the bullying you endured as much worse than what I went through, so it seems possible that had something to do with it, but I do wonder how much of it external vs internal. Would I have been you if I’d grown up in your place? Would you have been me in my place? We can never really know. ---
**Author:** ![Doubticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@Doubticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubticus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/54 "2016-11-30T23:09:14Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > Actually women kill their _own_ children at similar rates to men (I think it’s about the same or slightly lower) but 80% of children killed by non-parents are killed by men. The statistic I read stated that when “one” parent of a child was responsible for their death, it was committed by the woman 71% of the time. My point not being that women were more violent than men in this regard, but rather an imbalance of power will favor the stronger one to commit the violence. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/55 "2016-11-30T23:17:37Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > I have a hard time believing a lot of crime is “caused” by genetics, however. It’s choices. Testosterone can provoke more aggression but you can still (usually) choose not to act that way. (I guess there’s “roid rage” but you need to be actively abusing anabolic steroids to suffer from that. I would hold someone responsible for a crime committed during a “roid rage” as the criminal willingly chose to inject themselves with the steroids.) When my hormones go out of wack, I am much more likely to make bad choices. Why? Because my emotions tend to get more intense. I get more easily frustrated by simple tasks. I’m more irritable. I’m more sensitive to everything. My crappy moods then in turn affect my decision-making and the kinds of choices I make. Whereas normally I might not even think about honking my horn at the driver who cuts me off, when I’m feeling “hormonal” it’s a natural reaction. I can normally shrug off negative comments thrown my way. But when I’m PMSing, I’m liable to threaten the person who attempts to bully me with serious physical harm. And I have done this, much to my after-the-fact embarrassment. Instead of assuming that women are the only ones who get “hormonal”, I think we should start assuming that men do too. And not only that, perhaps we should start wondering if “bad-behaving males” could benefit from hormone therapy. (Taking the birth control pill has really helped me to be a happier, easier-going person). “It’s choices” is oversimplistic tripe. An individual has only as many choices as his cognition serves up. Since an individual’s cognition is largely a function of their biology, then separating genes from “choices” doesn’t make any sense. ---
**Author:** ![doubleminus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5daacb/32.png) [@doubleminus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doubleminus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2016, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/56 "2016-11-30T23:49:19Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > I tried, but I have a very limited tolerance for Camille Paglia and I couldn’t get through it. Yes, Camille Pagila is hard lo listen to. But Christina Hoff Sommers says the exact things you do, and provides, I think, a strong validation. There are many talks by her on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/57 "2016-12-01T01:09:39Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > It’s interesting to me that for you, this seems to have become a large part of your identity and how you see yourself, whereas for me, it’s something that, while I’ve been aware of it, never seemed that important. Interestingly, I just recently [blogged](http://ahunter3.livejournal.com/23102.html) about that very thing. [QUOTE=AHunter3 (on his blog)] Not too long ago on Facebook, in response to a post about whether other genderqueer folks in the group have moments of self-doubt and a sense of being an imposter who doesn’t really (always) feel the way they’ve described themself, I posted that I’ve been all over the map between “I’m sure all males experience themselves as inaccurately & inadequately described by the sexist reductionistic descriptions, I’m just more vocal about it” through “I am definitely more like a girl than I am like the other boys, so that’s one more difference in addition to being left-handed and having eyes of two different colors” all the way to “I am a girl; this is a really fundamental part of my identity and explains my life far better than any other thing, I am Different with a capital D and this is the Difference”. [/quote] A series of events in college when I was 20 going on 21, mostly having to do with sexual orientation, brought it to a head for me, more than the childhood harassment you asked about. For years I’d known I was attracted to girls, and that certainly gave me a lot in common with other males. But things kept not working out (cue up the “Nice Boys” theme music here, complete with some resentful sourness). Still a virgin at 20 and facing a lot of assumptions about my sexual orientation. Mostly tolerantly warm assumptions, not hostile ones. I came to realize that • I was having a difficult time of it being a functioning heterosexual guy because I didn’t tend to do the things you’re supposed to do & expected to do to make things happen; and • The more I felt pressured by my situation to behave more that way, the more I realized I _didn’t want to_, that wasn’t me. And the people who were making those fairly friendly tolerant assumptions about my sexuality? Because of my personality and behavior. As **Amateur Barbarian** [said](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19819048&postcount=2) very recently in a concurrent thread, feminine guys are assumed to be gay. And I realized that in every way _except_ wanting to get up close and personal with male bodies, they were right about me. I was different, just as different as gay guys. • But it was something else. More like transsexuals (I read about them and got excited about what I was reading, but I didn’t feel like my BODY was wrong) > [@](#): > > Would I have been you if I’d grown up in your place? Would you have been me in my place? We can never really know. I think our experiences shape us, and then we bring who we are into the next context which in turn shapes what kind of experienced we’re going to have. I don’t get to see and recognize and connect with very many male folks who say “oh me too, you sound like me”, so I really appreciate you saying so. I’m used to being an outlier but it’s nice to not always be such a total Martian if you know what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/58 "2016-12-01T01:21:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Fotheringay-Phipps** : > > My only added point here relates to the point made by octopus in post #8 but with broader application than just this thread. As you note, some of these same traits also account for men being disproportionately represented at the extreme outliers of success and accomplishment. But that notion is considered unacceptable by contemporary PC society. The suggestion that women should be underrepresented as legislators, judges, BoD members and the like because they are less represented at the talent levels that these positions require is not an acceptable one, and all such discrepancies are presumed to be due to direct or societal discrimination. Now, slow down there a moment! I didn’t say anything about “should”. That’s the way we are, and we are that way because of how we evolved, and we evolved as we did because of the conditions we’ve lived under. You can maybe say that, under the conditions we did most of our evolving under, that that’s the way we “should have” been (at least, it’s something that worked). But conditions nowadays are not the same as they were for most of our evolution. There are very, very few truly risky jobs any more, and those that are don’t need very many people filling them. We have the luxury now of considering _neither_ gender expendable, and once you put the genders on equal footing in terms of value in that way, there are a lot of other gender distinctions that become irrelevant. So, yes, there _are_ more men driven to be senators and stars and Nobel laureates, but maybe there _should_ be equal numbers of women. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/59 "2016-12-01T03:51:46Z")
Having personally witnessed innumerable times the effect testosterone has on transgender men, it’s really prima facie obvious to me why physically aggressive actions are much more the domain of men. The aggressiveness, the fighting, the one-upmanship, the surge in libido…yeah, it’s all there. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2016, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443/60 "2016-12-01T05:14:20Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Now, slow down there a moment! I didn’t say anything about “should”. That’s the way we are, and we are that way because of how we evolved, and we evolved as we did because of the conditions we’ve lived under. You can maybe say that, under the conditions we did most of our evolving under, that that’s the way we “should have” been (at least, it’s something that worked). > > But conditions nowadays are not the same as they were for most of our evolution. There are very, very few truly risky jobs any more, and those that are don’t need very many people filling them. We have the luxury now of considering _neither_ gender expendable, and once you put the genders on equal footing in terms of value in that way, there are a lot of other gender distinctions that become irrelevant. So, yes, there _are_ more men driven to be senators and stars and Nobel laureates, but maybe there _should_ be equal numbers of women. And how do you manage that? And if individuals are what is considered the fundamental unit of society why do or should we care about group outcomes? I get no benefit from another male taking a particular job. Matter of fact we are competing for that job and resources and mates etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-it-seem-like-women-do-less-bad-things-than-men/773443.md?page=4)