# Why does Levon Helm hate Robbie Robertson **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 16, 2005, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280 "2005-11-16T07:16:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Emily\_Litella](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emily_litella/32/3370_2.png) [@Emily\_Litella](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emily_Litella)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/81 "2017-12-19T18:59:11Z")
Hey Loach, I’m with you about Robbie’s first album, it’s been one of my favorites for years. I love Northern Lights, Southern Cross too. My recent Band earworm was “Acadian Driftwood”, an excellent song. I read “This Wheel’s on Fire” ages ago, and saw “The Last Waltz”. I think if I met Robbie and Levon in person I’d like Levon a hell of a lot better. I’m going to have to find my copy of “Before the Flood” and listen to it again. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/82 "2017-12-19T20:44:56Z")
Four singers. The Band had FOUR singers. Garth was the only one who didn’t sing. You can say that Robbie can’t sing, but nevertheless he sang. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/83 "2017-12-19T22:07:53Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > Four singers. The Band had FOUR singers. Garth was the only one who didn’t sing. > > You can say that Robbie can’t sing, but nevertheless he sang. If he never had a solo in The Band then he was a BG singer, or an ensemble singer. No one said he wasn’t that. But I have never heard a discussion of Robbies contributon to the Band’s vocal sound, as in The Weight, Long Black Veil, and others. I always thought it was 3 part harmony. ---
**Author:** ![Emily\_Litella](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emily_litella/32/3370_2.png) [@Emily\_Litella](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emily_Litella)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/84 "2017-12-20T17:43:34Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > Four singers. The Band had FOUR singers. Garth was the only one who didn’t sing. > > You can say that Robbie can’t sing, but nevertheless he sang. Robbie can’t sing. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/85 "2017-12-22T06:47:53Z")
“Greasy” sax solo? The hell does that mean? ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/86 "2017-12-22T07:09:18Z")
Slick? ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/87 "2017-12-22T13:30:27Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Btw, if you’ve seen the great movie **The Right Stuff** , that’s Levon Helm playing the part of Ripley. And he did a fine job of it, too. He sure did. Weird to be reading this thread now, I watched the film again about a week ago. I do remember after seeing it in the theaters that I went and sought out a pack of [Beeman’s Gum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beemans_gum) because it appeared that [Chuck Yeager sure liked a stick before testing a new lifting body.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB7ZTyVkfB8) As for the O.P., royalties and legal writing credits are/were the stuff of dissent. It’s not unique to The Band. It’s kind of a modern-day phenomenon and I think unique to the record industry. Michelangelo? No slouch when it came to cutting stone. He was one sculptin’ muthah. He also had assistants, notably one [Pietro Urbino](http://www.aboutfamousartists.com/index.php/2013/10/michelangelos-faithful-assistant/). Yet we universally do NOT recognize the master’s works as collaborations. The modern-day iteration might be people who write screenplays for a living. One person may indeed craft a script. Sometimes it is so singular that there’s little to no debate, they submit to the Writer’s Guild of America the drafts and final and are granted true sole authorship. A woman named [Diablo Cody](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diablo_Cody) did this for the film “Juno”. No debate, she wrote it alone. This is rarely the case. Ghosts, script doctors, uncredited assists and so on litter Hollywood screenplays. [Some of these conflicts are legion.](http://uproxx.com/movies/screenwriting-controversies/). And so it is with song credits and royalties. [Here’s one infamous case involving the megaband The Eagles.](https://www.billboard.com/articles/news/73339/songwriters-settle-eagles-royalty-suit). One can understand why it’s difficult to be gracious when one person is rather well-off and you’re scraping by when back in the day, you contributed. True collaborations are not so rare in music. But woe to the creative contributor who lacks a good lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/88 "2017-12-22T13:49:42Z")
> [@Emily\_Litella](#): > > Robbie can’t sing. ☹ Which, I suppose, is why he talks his way thru this one, at least (and does a semi-credible Tom Waits imitation): [Somewhere Down The Crazy River.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KP9PNSUME4) ---
**Author:** ![Buford\_was\_no\_angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Buford\_was\_no\_angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buford_was_no_angel)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/89 "2017-12-22T15:14:09Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > If he never had a solo in The Band then he was a BG singer, or an ensemble singer. No one said he wasn’t that. > > But I have never heard a discussion of Robbies contributon to the Band’s vocal sound, as in The Weight, Long Black Veil, and others. I always thought it was 3 part harmony. Robbie sang lead vocal on part of “To Kingdom Come” on _Music from Big Pink_. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/90 "2017-12-22T17:06:06Z")
> [@Buford\_was\_no\_angel](#): > > Robbie sang lead vocal on part of “To Kingdom Come” on _Music from Big Pink_. What part does he sing? ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/91 "2017-12-22T17:06:16Z")
…and that’s Exhibit A of why he never sang lead again on a Band song. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/92 "2017-12-22T18:25:18Z")
> [@jaycat](#): > > Which, I suppose, is why he talks his way thru this one, at least (and does a semi-credible Tom Waits imitation): [Somewhere Down The Crazy River.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KP9PNSUME4) That’s a stylistic choice for that one song. The rest of the album or his other solo work is not like that. Nice job by the Bodeans as his backup band. Does he have a great voice? No. Does Bob Dylan, Neil Young, Lou Reed, Leonard Cohen? His voice suits his music in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Buford\_was\_no\_angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Buford\_was\_no\_angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buford_was_no_angel)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/93 "2017-12-22T18:37:54Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > What part does he sing? His voice is in the mix throughout the song, with his vocal louder in the mix than Rick Danko’s during the first verse. Robbie sings solo on the verse that begins “I’ve been sitting in here for so darn long”. Interestingly, according to Levon’s biography they worked up a song with Garth singing lead. ---
**Author:** ![jaycat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jaycat/32/3015_2.png) [@jaycat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jaycat)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/94 "2017-12-22T19:43:49Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > That’s a stylistic choice for that one song. The rest of the album or his other solo work is not like that. Nice job by the Bodeans as his backup band. > > Does he have a great voice? No. Does Bob Dylan, Neil Young, Lou Reed, Leonard Cohen? His voice suits his music in my opinion. That’s the first song that Youtube came up with. In fairness I went back and discovered Broken Arrow, which he sings ok but his voice is way down in the mix, and Ghost Dance, which he also partly talks his way thru, and when he does sing, it’s in a duet with a female singer. That’s as far as I’m willing to explore. In fairness, I only gave each song 20-30 seconds. I saw The Band in 1974 backing up Dylan and I’d rather cling to my memories… ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/95 "2017-12-22T22:30:12Z")
> [@jaycat](#): > > That’s the first song that Youtube came up with. In fairness I went back and discovered Broken Arrow, which he sings ok but his voice is way down in the mix, and Ghost Dance, which he also partly talks his way thru, and when he does sing, it’s in a duet with a female singer. > > That’s as far as I’m willing to explore. In fairness, I only gave each song 20-30 seconds. I saw The Band in 1974 backing up Dylan and I’d rather cling to my memories… Me too. Some people just can’t sing. Ringo can’t sing. That doesn’t mean you can’t have a good music career. Align your self with people who have talents you don’t. FWIW I don’t like Dylan’s vocal stylings, I know all the songs and they represent a time in my life that is pleasant, so I like them. But seriously his voice is crap. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/96 "2017-12-22T22:44:59Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > Me too. Some people just can’t sing. Ringo can’t sing. That doesn’t mean you can’t have a good music career. Align your self with people who have talents you don’t. FWIW I don’t like Dylan’s vocal stylings, I know all the songs and they represent a time in my life that is pleasant, so I like them. But seriously his voice is crap. Ringo never embarrassed himself singing in THE BEATLES. Think about that. His vocal turn was a part of the product and it was beloved for being just right. When someone’s vocal is a part of something that great it seems a little much to say he couldn’t sing. There is a difference between “can’t sing” and the eccentric delivery which sometimes, and very famously, gets paired with great art. Like Bob and Neil for instance. I do get the feeling that some people can’t forgive Dylan for not singing like luther vandross, or Merle haggard, or Tom Jones, whomever, as if that makes a difference. I really don’t want to wait for Luther to write Mr Tambourine Man, any more than I need Bob to sing “well.” These are the given conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/97 "2017-12-22T22:53:16Z")
True. ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/98 "2017-12-23T02:47:51Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > “Greasy” sax solo? The hell does that mean? Hey, it’s my comment from twelve years ago! I almost had to think about what I meant, since I’m lousy at describing music.I’m pretty sure I took the term “greasy” from a book or review of either The Last Waltz or Rock of Ages, maybe from Greil Marcus. Greasy describes old-time rock-and-roll sax playing in the style of King Curtis et.al. that depends more on emotion and tone than clean note virtuoso playing. Clarence Clemons of the E Street Band is a more modern rock saxophonist with a greasy feel to their playing. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/99 "2017-12-23T18:55:54Z")
> [@bmoak](#): > > Hey, it’s my comment from twelve years ago! I almost had to think about what I meant, since I’m lousy at describing music.I’m pretty sure I took the term “greasy” from a book or review of either The Last Waltz or Rock of Ages, maybe from Greil Marcus. Greasy describes old-time rock-and-roll sax playing in the style of King Curtis et.al. that depends more on emotion and tone than clean note virtuoso playing. Clarence Clemons of the E Street Band is a more modern rock saxophonist with a greasy feel to their playing. I hope you didn’t really have to explain “greasy” as it applies to music here, but I guess you just did. Oboy. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280/100 "2017-12-23T20:24:44Z")
> [@jaycat](#): > > That’s the first song that Youtube came up with. In fairness I went back and discovered Broken Arrow, which he sings ok but his voice is way down in the mix, and Ghost Dance, which he also partly talks his way thru, and when he does sing, it’s in a duet with a female singer. > > That’s as far as I’m willing to explore. In fairness, I only gave each song 20-30 seconds. I saw The Band in 1974 backing up Dylan and I’d rather cling to my memories… As far as I remember that’s the only song off of that album that he made a video for which is why it comes up near the top of searches. I still like it a lot. I don’t know what you mean by being low in the mix. It sounds fine to me. I hope you’re not judging the mix from how it sounds on phone speakers. I think it’s a great song. Rod Stewart’s version is soulless and sterile. Here is the song he named his book after. On it he’s backed by some boys from Ireland. [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Egi8M3fndAg/hqdefault.jpg "Testimony by Robbie Robertson (studio version with lyrics)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Egi8M3fndAg) No reason why you have to like it but like I said I love the album. No one else in the band put out anything worth buying after the Last Waltz. His next album Storyville was good too. I never really got into his explorations on his First Nations background in his later albums. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-levon-helm-hate-robbie-robertson/331280.md?page=6)