# Why does Lolita mean child porn? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 2, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164 "2003-09-02T16:41:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/61 "2003-09-03T12:37:40Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Guinastasia_ > Okay, I think I’m going to read this book now, just to see what all the fuss is about. That’s pretty much what I did and I was happy I read it. It turned out to be one of the best books I’ve ever read. Aside from being a very nuanced story about Humbert’s relationships with Lolita and her mother it’s very cleverly written. By that I mean the wordplay and choice of phrasing is extremely clever which is amazing when you consider that English was Nabokov’s second language. I’ll add my voice to the chorus who say it’s not porn. In fact, it doesn’t seek to titillate. I think the book turned darker and darker and has a few key passages that condemn Humbert for what he’s done. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/62 "2003-09-03T12:42:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by handy \* > \*\*1955 Eve? My OED dictionary says 1958. > > “The name of a novel (1958) and its main character by Vladimir Nabokov (1899-1977) about a precocious schoolgirl seduced by a middle-aged man, used to designate people and situations resembling those in the book. Also attrib. and Comb.” \*\* You’re both right. The book was first published in Paris in 1955 after at least four US publishers turned Nabokov down. 1958 is the year that Putnam published it in the US. And **Anniee** sounds like Ed Meese. ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/63 "2003-09-03T13:01:45Z")
And now that Anniee seems to have gone away for a while I’d like to just add that Lolita is IMHO one of the best books I’ve ever read. I bought it in fact after watching the absolutely compelling Irons film. To see it as porn is absolutely missing the whole point of the book (or film), ignoring the characterisation and message about manipulative human nature (on all parts). Some people perhaps just need to learn that there is more than one way to look at a subject - even one as sensitive as this. For context, my sister was the recipient of sexual abuse from when she was no age to 17, and the perpetrator excused his actions in much the same way as Humbert did. The way in which Nabokov presents this line of reasoning and then (even though you know its false) suddenly drops in lines that make this crystal is shocking and effective. An absolute classic! To be honest, that Lolita has now become synonomous with underage sex is, I think, terrible. That’s perhaps why it is so often misunderstood these days. Mind you, I’m of the opinion that Kubrick’s light-hearted look didn’t do the book many favours either and I guess it was given this treatment as a gesture of appeasement. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/64 "2003-09-03T13:17:34Z")
Actually, **Zoff** , I could have sworn that English was Nabakov’s third language, after Russian and French. And I agree with the majority of posts here. _Lolita_ is, in my opinion, the best novel in English of the 20th century. The opening page is simply orgasmic in its poetry. I think the majority of people would define pornography as a work that primarily appeals to the prurient interest. This book falls well short of that definition. But some people just miss the point. ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/65 "2003-09-03T14:00:20Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by pulykamell_ > Actually, Zoff, I could have sworn that English was Nabakov’s third language, after Russian and French. You’re right. He spoke three languages, though his bio says he learned French and English from his governesses at about the same time. He majored in Russian and French literature in college. Pretty amazing guy. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/66 "2003-09-03T14:45:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Anniee \* > **There are graphic depictions of sex acts with a minor; or perhaps the words were too big for you to understand.** I thought he was just giving her a pony ride! :wally –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/67 "2003-09-03T15:02:55Z")
Heh. This thread has certainly improved since I looked at it yesterday morning. 1. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > \*\* And while the reason for that may be because you are holding the sword of righteousness in your hand against a vile misguided world, you should not dismiss the possibility that it’s because you’re wrong. \*\* Props to **Jodi**. 1. Nabokov was Russian and, had the political situation been different, may have preferred to continue to write in Russian. Lolita the book has been called his love affair with the English language or America (gee, a “love affair” with a young, vibrant but often tasteless and unsophisticated–in his eyes–language/culture: kinda sounds like Humbert and Lolita, huh?). 2. Here’s another thread on topic. [Lolita…I don’t get it.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=109410) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/68 "2003-09-03T15:40:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > [B}Also, to be technical about it, Humbert’s not a pedophile. Pedophiles lust after prepubescent children; Lolita isn’t one of those. \*\* While I agree with the rest of your point, I’ve got to put a flag on this. The entire point of the novel is that Humbert Humbert can only be attracted to girls just before the cusp of puberty. Lolita is 12 - she is underaged. She is a model of the girl Humbert fantasized about when he was younger and a commentary about Humbert’s inability to have normal sexual relations - any kind of true relations - with adult females. When Humbert sees her at the end of the book, post-puberty, he is repulsed by her. That’s why the movies (although I only saw the first) didn’t capture the book. Both girls were played by pubescent females (both 14, IIRC). A true Lolita movie would have to use a girl so young that the movie could never be made. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/69 "2003-09-03T15:51:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MetalDog \* > \*\*por·nog·ra·phy (pôr-ngr-f) > n. > > 1 Sexually explicit pictures, writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal. > > 2 The presentation or production of this material. > > 3 Lurid or sensational material: “Recent novels about the Holocaust have kept Hitler well offstage [so as] to avoid the… pornography of the era” (Morris Dickstein). > \*\* And there’s my favorite definition of pornography: “Anything you skip through to get to the good part.” _Lolita_ doesn’t even fall into that category. Seriously, though I haven’t read _Lolita_, I keep meaning to. Maybe this summer when I’ve got some time. And props to The Police, for shoehorning a reference to _Lolita_ in _Don’t Stand So Close To Me_. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/70 "2003-09-03T15:54:09Z")
**Exapno** - I’m pretty sure that in Kubrick’s version Lolita was 16. ---
**Author:** ![Krisfer\_the\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Krisfer\_the\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krisfer_the_Cat)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/71 "2003-09-03T16:12:06Z")
**Anniee** reminds me of those nitwits so intent in finding pornography in Disney that they sit and watch it for HOURS frame by frame until they find it. Hell, the rest of us just watch it and move on never knowing we have been watching dirty movies 😉 If the book repulsed you so much honey, WHY didnt you just throw it out? Or trade it in for something more to your tastes? I’m with **Guin** this book has now moved up to my MUST READ list. In Utah, Lolita was almost old enough to marry … 14 with parents permission, 16 without. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/72 "2003-09-03T16:50:59Z")
What’s curious about **Anniee** is that she didn’t seem all that offended by those [t.A.t.U. Russian girls](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3918731#post3918731) who took lesbian Lolita-ism to a whole new level. So we’re not dealing with your basic, generic, Bible-belt prude here. She’s also a [King Diamond](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3927251#post3927251) and [Anne Rice](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3927467#post3927467) fan as well. WTF?!? Now I’m _really_ confused… ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/73 "2003-09-03T17:08:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoff \* > **I mean the wordplay and choice of phrasing is extremely clever which is amazing when you consider that English was Nabokov’s second language.** As **Humble Servant** mentions, one of the many undercurrents of this quite remarkable novel is that it can be interpreted as Nabokov’s love affair with a young, uncouth language (or culture), abandoning an older, more refined partner for the excitement of the new and (according to the mores he’s leaving behind) thrillingly dirty and perverse. Say what you will about the means Nabokov uses to explore his ideas, but I didn’t see no alternative subtexts in _The Sopornos._ 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/74 "2003-09-03T17:18:56Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Cervaise_ > As Humble Servant mentions, one of the many undercurrents of this quite remarkable novel is that it can be interpreted as Nabokov’s love affair with a young, uncouth language (or culture), abandoning an older, more refined partner for the excitement of the new and (according to the mores he’s leaving behind) thrillingly dirty and perverse. I had read a discussion of the book that made this point, which is one of the reasons I wanted to read it. I wish more people would have a love affair with English. It was a book I could enjoy both as a story and as a piece of extraordinary writing. And he managed to do it without trying to draw attention to his use of the language. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/75 "2003-09-03T17:57:42Z")
> [@](#): > > The entire point of the novel is that Humbert Humbert can only be attracted to girls just before the cusp of puberty. Lolita is 12 - she is underaged. She is a model of the girl Humbert fantasized about when he was younger and a commentary about Humbert’s inability to have normal sexual relations - any kind of true relations - with adult females. When Humbert sees her at the end of the book, post-puberty, he is repulsed by her. She’s definitely underaged. This part of the definition was discussed in another thread and I was being more literal about it. > [@](#): > > Both girls were played by pubescent females (both 14, IIRC). A true Lolita movie would have to use a girl so young that the movie could never be made. You’re correct that it was intentional - I think people just would’ve been too repulsed by the visual side of it. Apparently, Sue Lyon (Lolita in film #1) was chosen _because_ she looked mature. ---
**Author:** ![Kayeby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de0a6/32.png) [@Kayeby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kayeby)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/76 "2003-09-03T18:12:35Z")
I’ve been meaning to buy Lolita for awhile, but I’m hanging out for the annotated version so I can understand all the nuances of the book. The Borders near me had a copy but it was beaten up pretty badly - this thread has reminded me to check out some of the other Borders around me (all the other bookstores have the non-annotated versions). ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/77 "2003-09-03T18:26:41Z")
Actually, Russian and English were _both_ Nabokov’s first languages. His wealthy parents hired a Scottish governess, who spoke to Vladimir only in English from birth. At the age of five he began French lessons. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/78 "2003-09-03T19:35:58Z")
I encourage all the people who say they now intend to read _Lolita_, but please keep in mind that it is not a FUN book. It’s very well written and the issues it raises are provactive (in every sense of the word) but for the same reason it is a pretty disturbing book and Humbert a pretty distasteful character. I think the comparison to _Bastard Out Of Carolina_ is to that extent an apt one, in that BOOC is IMO another very well written book that is nevertheless disturbing and in some places tough to read. But literature should at least occasionally challenge us, and _Lolita_ does that in spades. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/79 "2003-09-03T23:08:17Z")
I thought Scottish and English were two different languages. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164/80 "2003-09-03T23:34:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Papermache Prince \* > \*\*\The people you are trying to communicate with are neither stupid nor immoral. They just don’t blaze with your self-righteous fervor. \*\* One for the ages! Hats off to **Papermache Prince!** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-lolita-mean-child-porn/199164.md?page=5)