# Why does NATO have to "back up" Turkey? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 25, 2015, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507 "2015-11-25T03:35:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/1 "2015-11-25T03:35:32Z")
So, ok, they had both sides on NPR. The NATO position is "the jet went inside the airspace border of a NATO country. (never mind that it probably was trying to bomb an enemy of Turkey and just strayed over the border for a moment while circling around for another pass). Warnings were broadcast (never mind the most likely reason they were ignored is the Russian pilots didn’t hear them, due to their radios not being set to the right channel and/or being too busy to acknowledge any alerts in cockpit if there even were any). Therefore we have to stand by them. I don’t know about the rest of the dopers, but a bunch of assholes who do not stand for American or Western European values isn’t something to risk ww3 over. The Russian side is "look, we didn’t stray over the border for more than a few seconds. Even if we did, there is no plausible way the government of Turkey can say they felt threatened - if Russia were planning to attack Turkey, it wouldn’t be from one jet that is in a big turn. " The Russian side is correct. Can NATO eject Turkey and let Russia get revenge? ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/2 "2015-11-25T04:04:12Z")
Rather rose colored glasses you’re wearing there, aren’t they Vladimir P…Oh wait, we’re not allowed to ‘out’ someone’s IRL name here as that’s against the rules > [@NY Times article](#): > > A United States military spokesman, Col. Steven Warren, confirmed on Tuesday that Turkish pilots had warned the Russian pilot 10 times, but that the Russian jet ignored the warnings. \ > Turkish officials played recordings of the warnings Turkish F-16 pilots had issued to the Russian aircraft. The Russian pilots did not reply. There are international conventions on flying. This plane didn’t abide by them. [ul] [li]The plane went where it wasn’t supposed to go. [/li][li]The pilots didn’t acknowledge _repeated_ attempts to contact them. [/li][li]The plane was a heavily armed warplane.[/li][/ul] Turkey has every right to defend itself in light of the above. Also, > [@same article](#): > > And while few expect a military escalation, with neither Russia nor NATO wanting to go to war WWIII is not imminent. Further, if we were to push to eject Turkey from NATO, do you think any country would ever trust us to sign a treaty again? Also Turkey is strategic to NATO both for bases & flyover rights. Do you realize how much harder it would be for the US to launch an offensive w/o Turkey’s support? Either the pilots were ordered by their commanders to ‘tickle the tiger’s tail’ or they screwed up. It doesn’t matter whether accidental or intentional, _those_ pilots won’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/3 "2015-11-25T07:05:04Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > The NATO position is "the jet went inside the airspace border of a NATO country. (never mind that it probably was trying to bomb an enemy of Turkey and just strayed over the border for a moment while circling around for another pass). Warnings were broadcast (never mind the most likely reason they were ignored is the Russian pilots didn’t hear them, due to their radios not being set to the right channel and/or being too busy to acknowledge any alerts in cockpit if there even were any). Therefore we have to stand by them. I’d like to hear what a third party nato E-3 sentry recorded, if thats available. That Russian Jet was either on a spy mission, or a freedom of navigation mission. I can’t see the turkish airforce, spending how much time, issuing warnings, and then kicking it up to the PM to authorize the shoot down, unless the plane was directly inside turkish airspace. The Russians should be monitoring guard channel at least. We are not getting the full story. I for one, find it interesting, that the Russians would have a CSAR mission up that quickly. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/4 "2015-11-25T07:43:28Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > (never mind that it probably was trying to bomb an enemy of Turkey and just strayed over the border for a moment while circling around for another pass). The Russian plane was attacking an anti-Assad Turkmen militia, a _friend_ of Turkey. Russia and Turkey are on different sides in this war, even if they are both against ISIS. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/5 "2015-11-25T07:46:41Z")
Russia is not a great poster child for good behavior by pilots, at the same time Turkey is being very duplicitous with their supposed NATO allies re their dealings with ISIS and are allowing ISIS virtually free reign in certain areas. The Turks are not to be trusted. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/6 "2015-11-25T09:02:41Z")
Rein. Free _rein_. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/7 "2015-11-25T10:28:11Z")
One light cavalry brigade from Britain will fix everything. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/8 "2015-11-25T11:27:24Z")
What do you think the US would do if a Russian warplane came in to our airspace? Why would you think Turkey has less of a right to defend themselves as the US? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/9 "2015-11-25T12:31:56Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > What do you think the US would do if a Russian warplane came in to our airspace? > > Why would you think Turkey has less of a right to defend themselves as the US? Defend themselves against what? It was in for about 10 seconds and was shot down and crashed well inside Syria. Its not like it was about to begin a bombing run on down town Istanbul. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/10 "2015-11-25T13:12:47Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Defend themselves against what? It was in for about 10 seconds and was shot down and crashed well inside Syria. > > Its not like it was about to begin a bombing run on down town Istanbul. Again, would the US have done any different? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/11 "2015-11-25T13:58:39Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > What do you think the US would do if a Russian warplane came in to our airspace? > > Why would you think Turkey has less of a right to defend themselves as the US? Like it likely hasnt happened as long ago as last week in Alaskan air space. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/12 "2015-11-25T13:59:19Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > The Russian side is correct. Can NATO eject Turkey and let Russia get revenge? The Russian side is full of crap. Enough with the Putin fan club already. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/13 "2015-11-25T14:03:22Z")
And lets not forget this 😉 > **[1960 U-2 incident](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_U-2_incident)** > > On 1 May 1960, a United States U-2 spy plane was shot down by the Soviet Air Defence Forces while conducting photographic aerial reconnaissance deep inside Soviet territory. The single-seat aircraft, flown by American pilot Francis Gary Powers, had taken off from Peshawar, Pakistan, and crashed near Sverdlovsk (present-day Yekaterinburg), after being hit by an S-75 Dvina (SA-2 Guideline) surface-to-air missile. Powers parachuted to the ground safely and was captured. > Initially, American autho... ---
**Author:** ![Ispolkom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47774/32.png) [@Ispolkom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ispolkom)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/14 "2015-11-25T14:17:06Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > And lets not forget this 😉 > > [1960 U-2 incident - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_U-2_incident) or this: > **[Korean Air Lines Flight 007](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007)** > > Korean Air Lines Flight 007 (KE007/KAL007)\[note 2\] was a scheduled Korean Air Lines flight from New York City to Seoul via Anchorage, Alaska. On September 1, 1983, the flight was shot down by a Soviet Sukhoi Su-15 interceptor aircraft. The Boeing 747 airliner was en route from Anchorage to Seoul, but owing to a navigational mistake made by the crew, the airliner drifted from its planned route and flew through Soviet prohibited airspace over underground silos with intercontinental ballistic miss... or this: > **[Korean Air Lines Flight 902](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902)** > > Korean Air Lines Flight 902 (KAL 902) was a scheduled Korean Air Lines flight from Paris to Seoul via Anchorage. On 20 April 1978, the Soviet air defense shot down the aircraft serving the flight, a Boeing 707, near Murmansk, Soviet Union, after the aircraft violated Soviet airspace. > Flight 902 had veered off course over the Arctic Ocean and entered Soviet airspace near the Kola Peninsula, whereupon it was intercepted and fired upon by a Soviet fighter jet. The incident killed two of the 109 p... (and that’s just Korean Airlines) ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/15 "2015-11-25T15:09:16Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > The Russian side is correct. Can NATO eject Turkey and let Russia get revenge? The whole point of NATO was to act in opposition to the USSR and the Warsaw Pact. Ejecting Turkey and favoring Russia over this would, IMHO, basically destroy any credibility NATO has as a mutual defense group. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/16 "2015-11-25T15:18:00Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > The whole point of NATO was to act in opposition to the USSR and the Warsaw Pact. Ejecting Turkey and favoring Russia over this would, IMHO, basically destroy any credibility NATO has as a mutual defense group. Especially because Russia is lying about what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/17 "2015-11-25T15:20:48Z")
Well, there’s that too. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/18 "2015-11-25T15:39:20Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Especially because Russia is lying about what happened. I don’t think they are lying. Neither they nor the Turks are telling the whole truth. The VVSR has made incursions into Turkish airspace and has tested Air Defences and even locked on to TuAF F-16’s a couple of times. I just don’t think this was one of them. Most likely it was a strike aircraft which got in by mistake and the Turks took the opportunity to shoot down a plane with no real A2A capability which was attacking their ethnic cousins. If it has been a real test, then there would have been a squadron of Su-30’s in support. They have those in theatre as well. Now all strike sorties will be escorted. Expect more shootdowns soon. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/19 "2015-11-25T15:50:08Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > The Russian side is correct. Can NATO eject Turkey and let Russia get revenge? Given that it was Turkey that pretty much ended the Cuban Missile Crisis over its own objections (by agreeing to have nuclear missiles pulled out, IIRC), I don’t see Turkey being tossed out of NATO - at least, not if USA has anything to say about it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/20 "2015-11-25T16:08:08Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > The Russian side is correct. Can NATO eject Turkey and let Russia get revenge? Splendid idea. What could possibly go wrong with that! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507.md?page=2)