# Why does NATO have to "back up" Turkey? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 25, 2015, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507 "2015-11-25T03:35:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/21 "2015-11-25T16:22:59Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > a bunch of assholes who do not stand for American or Western European values !?! It’s the first time I respond with just exclamations points and questions marks but !!!?!?!! They had a mix of Robespierre and Cromwell who was largely successful in turning the center of Islam into a Western country. The current government is overly religious but it’ll go when it’s no longer delivering economic growth. The institutions are still Kemalist. Turkey is the best ally in the region and one of the most valuable members of NATO. As for Russia, if you invade countries and keep poking at others to see how far they’ll let you go, you should expect a terse response if you do something that looks like you’re poking at Turkey. Also, if you keep lying about this sort of incidents, at some point others won’t care what you say about these incidents. ---
**Author:** ![Majestic\_Lee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Majestic\_Lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Majestic_Lee)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/22 "2015-11-25T16:26:12Z")
Wouldn’t trust ISIS/ISIL/Daesh-supporting Turkey on this as far as I could spit. And that probably goes for most of Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/23 "2015-11-25T16:32:23Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I don’t think they are lying. Neither they nor the Turks are telling the whole truth. Russia is saying that there was no communication with the aircraft. If you google it, you can find recordings of one of the warnings from the Turks that was broadcast. Russia says that the airplane never entered Turkish airspace. It seems increasingly clear that’s not true. Russia says that the aircraft were engaged in bombing ISIL. That’s clearly false, since the evidence that they were engaged in operations against non-ISIL opposition groups is overwhelming, not to mention that ISIL has little to no presence in Latakia. Those are clearly lies, not misunderstandings. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/24 "2015-11-25T16:56:24Z")
We have recordings of them trying to Hail the Russians. We have no idea if they actually received them, which is certainly possible they did not. From MMMMMMMMMCMXCIX posts to MMMMMMMMMM posts. Yay! ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/25 "2015-11-26T00:01:38Z")
Will it be tasteless to remind the Russians of Korean Airlines flight 007 (1983)? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/26 "2015-11-26T02:04:37Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > The whole point of NATO was to act in opposition to the USSR and the Warsaw Pact. Just to nitpick… Just the USSR, really. The Warsaw Pact did not exist when NATO was created any anyway wasn’t really a voluntary alliance the way NATO was. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/27 "2015-11-26T05:15:27Z")
> [@Habeed](#): > > The NATO position is "the jet went inside the airspace border of a NATO country. (never mind that it probably was trying to bomb an enemy of Turkey and just strayed over the border for a moment while circling around for another pass). Russia really seems to have some trouble with this, even accidentally landing paratroopers in another country. At what point do we stop giving them the benefit of the doubt? Also, considering the number of warnings given, it seems like it was rather more than “a moment”. > [@](#): > > Warnings were broadcast (never mind the most likely reason they were ignored is the Russian pilots didn’t hear them, due to their radios not being set to the right channel and/or being too busy to acknowledge any alerts in cockpit if there even were any). Yes, perhaps they were tuned to Jazz FM instead of the internationally-recognized UHF (military) aircraft emergency frequency? I heard they also missed a satirical show on talk radio they had been looking forward to all day. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/28 "2015-11-26T09:22:25Z")
Turkey is a sovereign nation and has a right to its airspace. If Russia flies a military aircraft into it, for whatever reason, even by mistake, Turkey has the right too shoot it down. Fuck Russia if they don’t have their radio communications in order. Then don’t conduct military operations so close to Turkeys borders. Go ahead, insert jokes about my screen name HERE: ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/29 "2015-11-26T09:42:37Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > Turkey is a sovereign nation and has a right to its airspace. If Russia flies a military aircraft into it, for whatever reason, even by mistake, Turkey has the right too shoot it down. > > Fuck Russia if they don’t have their radio communications in order. Then don’t conduct military operations so close to Turkeys borders. Excellent. So everytime a U.S B-52 makes an erroneous entry into Russian Airspace tests Russian Airspace over the White Sea or the Kamchatka Peninsula, the, the Russian may shoot those birds down at leisure. The VVSR has a duty to defend its planes and personnel, they should also shoot down any Turkish or NATO which appears hostile. Or the Greeks should shoot down Turkish warplanes over the Agean. Everytime a US sub is detected inside Russian waters, or even the EEZ, the Northern and Pacific Fleets may open fire; for all they know the sub is fishing there. > [@](#): > > Go ahead, insert jokes about my screen name HERE: What joke? Russian heels were usually of the Russian No 1 type, which you clearly are not. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/30 "2015-11-26T12:09:53Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Excellent. So everytime a U.S B-52 makes an erroneous entry into Russian Airspace tests Russian Airspace over the White Sea or the Kamchatka Peninsula, the, the Russian may shoot those birds down at leisure. If it enters Russian airspace, yes, that it a risk. > [@](#): > > The VVSR has a duty to defend its planes and personnel, they should also shoot down any Turkish or NATO which appears hostile. Or the Greeks should shoot down Turkish warplanes over the Aegean. They can’t shoot down a plane in international airspace because the oppositing pilot gives them the stink-eye. But if one plane is acting hostile, and there’s a decent reason to believe that another aircraft is going to attack, every nation has the inherent right to self-defense. You should bear in mind that Russia and China are pretty much the worst offenders in aggressive intercepting unarmed aircraft in international airspace. They conduct reckless maneuvers that are tremendously unsafe. > [@](#): > > Every time a US sub is detected inside Russian waters, or even the EEZ, the Northern and Pacific Fleets may open fire; for all they know the sub is fishing there. Now you ought to know your whole argument is crap because you can’t even present a persuasive argument without silly straw men like this. Nobody claims that EEZ are territorial waters, and nobody claims fishermen should be shot at. Everyone but you understands the protected right of nations for peaceful transit, which is clearly explained in the Law of the Sea. But again, Russia appears to be an outlier for this, given how it’s submarines have regularly invaded Swedish territorial waters, and I note that the Swedes have sometimes saw fit to try to blow up the invading sub. This is the SDMB. You really ought to know better than to bring such weak, silly arguments to the table here. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/31 "2015-11-26T13:08:28Z")
Maybe you should take a leave of absence from the SDMB, until your reading comprehension is at a perhaps 5th grade level, since my post expressly differentiated the EEZ from territorial waters, and in the later the State is entitled to police vessels. And maybe, stop believing propaganda put out by NATO on face value. ---
**Author:** ![race\_to\_the\_bottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c4cdca/32.png) [@race\_to\_the\_bottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/race_to_the_bottom)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/32 "2015-11-26T15:31:09Z")
Erdogan is an Islamacist who is trying to destroy the secular government of Syria. Turkey is ISIS and the other terrorist organizations rear base. Most supplies come through Turkey quite openly; sometimes hundreds of trucks a day. The US knows about it, of course, but finds ISIS useful to destroy Assad to weaken Iran’s geopolitical positions in the area. Russia is bombing terrorists on the Syrian side of the border. Apparently a Russian plane crossed briefly into Turkish territory. Everyone involved, including NATO, knows that there was no threat to Turkey. Under these circumstances, the protocol is to issue a diplomatic protest, not to shoot down the plane. Plus, one pilot was apparently murdered. This was a true outrage. If this had happened to a US plane, there would be war drums all along the Potomac. Erdogan wants to create a situation requiring more support from NATO and especially the US, which is publicly against ISIS, but actually supports it through its proxies. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/33 "2015-11-26T15:44:53Z")
Erdogan is not an “Islamist” or “Islamicst”. He is an old fashioned Turkish nationalist, the kind that Ataturk put down and replaced with “Westernisation”. Erdogan wants Turkey to once again be a power in the region and has made efforts at that for most of his time in power. Neo-Ottoman has been used to describe him. If he had dropped dead of a heart attack in 2013, he would be remembered rightly as the greatest Turkish leader since Ataturk. Instead, his last two years have been basically one fuck up after another. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/34 "2015-11-27T04:00:29Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Erdogan is not an “Islamist” or “Islamicst”. He is an old fashioned Turkish nationalist, the kind that Ataturk put down and replaced with “Westernisation”. Erdogan wants Turkey to once again be a power in the region and has made efforts at that for most of his time in power. Neo-Ottoman has been used to describe him. > > If he had dropped dead of a heart attack in 2013, he would be remembered rightly as the greatest Turkish leader since Ataturk. Instead, his last two years have been basically one fuck up after another. Pretty sure Ataturk was a nationalist as well. The difference is that Erdogan’s nationalism has a religious angle as well. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2015, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507/35 "2015-11-27T12:56:57Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Maybe you should take a leave of absence from the SDMB, until your reading comprehension is at a perhaps 5th grade level Personal insults aren’t allowed in this forum. Dial it back. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-nato-have-to-back-up-turkey/738507.md?page=1)