# Why does Starfleet insist they are "not military"?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [October 2, 2020, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023 "2020-10-02T11:05:16Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/1 "2020-10-02T11:05:16Z")
They wear uniforms, have a rank system based on Earth Navys, a distinction between officers and enlisted, power to order their subordinates to performs tasks backed up by penal sanction for non-compliance, have handheld weapons which can disintegrate an apartment complex, build and operate big ass ships with enough firepower to devastate a continent from orbit and whenever the Federation decides that a Johnny Foreigners is in need of a damn good thrashing its Starfleet which does it.
For some reason, despite that, they seem to insist they aren’t military. Sure they do _exploration_ and scientific work but the 18th and 19th century Royal Navy did a lot of that as well.
To be fair its clear that their adversaries at least, aren’t buying it.
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### Author:  [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/2 "2020-10-02T11:08:31Z")
There’s a need to have a military capability but the primary function is not military in nature.
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### Author:  [@Banksiaman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banksiaman)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/3 "2020-10-02T11:42:32Z")
> [@AK84](#):
>
> They wear uniforms, have a rank system based on Earth Navys, a distinction between officers and enlisted, power to order their subordinates to performs tasks backed up by penal sanction for non-compliance, have handheld weapons which can disintegrate an apartment complex, build and operate big ass ships with enough firepower to devastate a continent from orbit and whenever the Federation decides that a Johnny Foreigners is in need of a damn good thrashing its Starfleet which does it.
> For some reason, despite that, they seem to insist they aren’t military. Sure they do _exploration_ and scientific work but the 18th and 19th century Royal Navy did a lot o
That sounds exactly like many of the great national exploratory missions of the 18th and 19th century, run by various European nations and the US - Captain Cook’s Endeavour voyage, Laperouse, Bellinghausen etc.
They all used naval ships and were predominantly crewed by serving officers, but had distinct scientific staff and non-military, but still very geo-politically strategic, objectives.
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/4 "2020-10-02T11:52:39Z")
ISTR both in the original series and in at least one of the movies that Starfleet officers specifically referred to Starfleet as military.
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### Author:  [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/5 "2020-10-02T11:54:15Z")
Starfleet uses a structure and organization based on a Military structure but it has three main functions: Exploration, Scientific research and, yes, defense. All three are equally important. So it is the military but that isn’t all it is.
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### Author:  [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/6 "2020-10-02T12:36:32Z")
Sure, but that’s saying that Starfleet is other things _in addition_ to being military. That’s different from being “not military.”
This used to be a pretty big thing in Star Trek fandom. A lot of fans were insistent that Starfleet was “not military,” mostly because Gene Roddenberry had supposedly once said that it wasn’t. The funny thing is, I’ve never been able to find a clear citation for exactly when he said that, and in what context. I’ve found lots of instances of people _claiming_ that he said that, but I’ve never been able to find where and when he _actually_ said it.
Which leads me to suspect that his saying it may be apocryphal.
Nevertheless, we’ve seen the Enterprise stand up against Klingon battle cruisers and Romulan warbirds. Starfleet fights the Federation’s wars, protects its borders, and challenges its enemies. No matter what else Starfleet may be, it’s certainly military.
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### Author:  [@Ryz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryz)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/7 "2020-10-02T12:49:47Z")
> [@MrAtoz](#):
>
> No matter what else Starfleet may be, it’s certainly military.
Yep.
Just watching DS9 and the war with the Dominion makes that clear.
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/8 "2020-10-02T13:05:42Z")
Only monsters would allow families with small children aboard active warships. Call them “exploration vehicles”, though, and you can risk helpless civilians on a weekly basis with a free conscience.
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### Author:  [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/9 "2020-10-02T13:05:51Z")
Cite? Where in the canon does Starfleet insist it’s not military?
Not really doubting the OP, just curious. Also, this is the first time I’ve ever called for a ‘cite’, so that was fun 😁
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### Author:  [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/10 "2020-10-02T13:10:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> Only monsters would allow families with small children aboard active warships. Call them “exploration vehicles”, though, and you can risk helpless civilians on a weekly basis with a free conscience.
Wasn’t unknown for the captain and one or more of the officers to have their families onboard in the Royal Navy.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/11 "2020-10-02T14:56:03Z")
Yeah. Folks using a 20th or 21st Century lens to evaluate “military vs not-military” are lost.
The militaries of the 14th-19th centuries are closer. There’s a lot of _terra nullius_ out there. And a lot of unknown badness, both in physics and in biology = aliens.
Yes, you’re exploring, but more importantly also exploiting. Along the way some genuine scientific research may be done, but it’s mostly stamp collecting: finding _what_ is there, not the _why_ behind it being there. And always with an eye to how that _what_ can be put to use.
And since self-defense and perhaps even Israeli-style pre-emptively offensive defense is a necessity that far from home in both time and distance, weapons & the doctrine to use them are necessary.
Whether you want to label that weaponized government-sponsored exploration as a militarized science project or as a scientifically curious military occupation / show-the-flag mission is a mostly matter of taste.
I’m unfamiliar enough with ST canon to offer any opinion on where this curious notion that Star Fleet isn’t military came from.
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### Author:  [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/12 "2020-10-02T15:24:39Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#):
>
> I’m unfamiliar enough with ST canon to offer any opinion on where this curious notion that Star Fleet isn’t military came from.
Roddenberry’s ass. It’s not canon, and quite the opposite. David Marcus specifically calls them “the military”, and Wrath of Khan is a good enough cite for me.
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### Author:  [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/13 "2020-10-02T15:51:07Z")
> [@solost](#):
>
> Cite? Where in the canon does Starfleet insist it’s not military?
In the TNG episode “Peak Performance,” a renowned strategist visits the Enterprise to set up and observe a battle exercise. This episode takes place after the Enterprise first encounters the Borg, and this exercise was arranged to prepare them for that future threat. If you remember the Borg episode, the Enterprise got its ass handed to them, lost several crew members, and were only able to escape because Q snapped his fingers after Picard admitted that they were not prepared to deal with this this new threat.
Both Riker and Picard are rather disdainful of this tactical exercise from the start even going so far as to call it a waste of time. Which is surprising given that it wasn’t so long ago that they lost several crew members because they weren’t prepared for the Borg. In this episode, Picard specifically says Starfleet was not a military organization it was one of exploration and I think this is where the whole ball got rolling so far as whether or not our heroes were part of a military.
Even if they spend more of their time exploring, defending the Federation is one of their responsibilities and to be disdainful of training in preparation for that was uncharacteristically stupid behavior on their part. Claiming Starfleet wasn’t military was just one of those crazy ideas Roddenberry had later in life when he started going off the rails. It wasn’t present in the original series and the idea that Starfleet isn’t a military is incredulous given one of their functions is to prosecute wars on behalf of the Federation. A lot of people like to compare them to the US Coast Guard, which is especially amusing to me given that the USCG is one branch of our armed forces. i.e. They’re military.
But this idea has persisted even in the new JJ Abrams movies. Remember in the Khan remake where Scotty derisively asks Kirk if Starfleet was a military now?
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### Author:  [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/14 "2020-10-02T15:52:20Z")
Of course, in TNG “Yesterday’s Enterprise”, (the one where an alternate timeline is created where the Federation is losing a very long war with the Klingons) they drove home the point that Starfleet was now a super-duper military organization:
“Fleet formation briefing in the main War Room at 1500 hours.”
“Military Log: Combat Date 43625.2”
“Battle Alert: Condition Yellow”
“Children on the Enterprise? Guinan, we’re at war.”
Everyone on board, up to and including the Captain and Dr. Crusher, has a sidearm at all times.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/15 "2020-10-02T16:27:28Z")
So in the alternate timeline, Star Fleet was a military organization. I don’t see how that applies to the timeline we’re watching normally.
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### Author:  [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/16 "2020-10-02T16:28:15Z")
It always seemed to be a stupid contention to me.
Starfleet has military ranks, armed vessels, responsibility for defense, etc… How are they NOT military?
The exploration and science angles don’t wash either; there’s LOTS of historical precedent for Earth navies doing that sort of thing. Charles Darwin was aboard _HMS Beagle_ on a survey expedition, the US Navy has done most of the undersea mapping of the world’s oceans, a lot of astronauts have been military officers, etc…
I think it was just some bizarre idea of Gene Roddenberry’s that Starfleet wasn’t military, along with the weird idea that there were no enlisted ranks in Starfleet.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/17 "2020-10-02T16:34:37Z")
There was also the whole “money doesn’t exist” in Star Trek.
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### Author:  [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/18 "2020-10-02T16:53:12Z")
> [@AK84](#):
>
> They…have handheld weapons which can disintegrate an apartment complex, build and operate big ass ships with enough firepower to devastate a continent from orbit…
And if an organization like that says “We’re not military!” who’s gonna dare to argue with them?
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### Author:  [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/19 "2020-10-02T16:57:59Z")
> [@Odesio](#):
>
> Both Riker and Picard are rather disdainful of this tactical exercise from the start even going so far as to call it a waste of time. Which is surprising given that it wasn’t so long ago that they lost several crew members because they weren’t prepared for the Borg. In this episode, Picard specifically says Starfleet was not a military organization it was one of exploration and I think this is where the whole ball got rolling so far as whether or not our heroes were part of a military.
Which makes it even more disconcerting when you remember that the ostensible reason the Borg kidnapped and assimilated Picard was since he knew all of the various Federation defence plans.
And he had an actual battle tactic named after him.
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### Author:  [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)
#### Post date: [October 2, 2020, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/20 "2020-10-02T16:59:55Z")
> [@AK84](#):
>
> And he had an actual battle tactic named after him.
Since when is pulling on your tunic a battle tactic?
😉
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