# Why does Starfleet insist they are "not military"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 2, 2020, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023 "2020-10-02T11:05:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/21 "2020-10-02T17:18:06Z")
The officers who work on oceangoing ships typically have military ranks: captain, first officer, cadet, quartermaster, etc. That doesn’t mean that Royal Caribbean is a navy. Starfleet’s primary purpose is to “seek out new life.” That’s why it isn’t military. The primary purpose of any military entity is national defense (although sometimes “defense” is a euphemism for “attack”). The fact that Starfleet maintains a defensive capability doesn’t make it a military organization either. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/22 "2020-10-02T17:28:22Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Which makes it even more disconcerting when you remember that the ostensible reason the Borg kidnapped and assimilated Picard was since he knew all of the various Federation defence plans. > And he had an actual battle tactic named after him. This was before Picard had been assimilated but after their first encounter with the Borg. ---
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/23 "2020-10-02T17:30:34Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > There was also the whole “money doesn’t exist” in Star Trek. Yeah, how exactly does that work out-- does the janitor staff on the Enterprise get access to exactly the same resources as the Captain? Nothing against janitors, just sayin’. I’m guessing the answer will be “all menial tasks have been automated in the future” but there are bound to be some people who have more valuable skills or perform more critical tasks than others. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/24 "2020-10-02T17:31:51Z")
And how does life work back on Earth, if money was eliminated? Surely most people work normal jobs? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/25 "2020-10-02T17:32:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The officers who work on oceangoing ships typically have military ranks: captain, first officer, cadet, quartermaster, etc. That doesn’t mean that Royal Caribbean is a navy. > > Starfleet’s primary purpose is to “seek out new life.” That’s why it isn’t military. The primary purpose of any military entity is national defense (although sometimes “defense” is a euphemism for “attack”). The fact that Starfleet maintains a defensive capability doesn’t make it a military organization either. Members of Starfleet are subject to a courts martial when they’re on trial for breaking the law. Also, the fact that Starfleet plans invasions is a good clue that they’re a military organization. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/26 "2020-10-02T17:37:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The fact that Starfleet maintains a defensive capability doesn’t make it a military organization either. I agree with the rest of your post. But I suggest that snip might be better said as: > The fact that Starfleet maintains a defensive capability doesn’t necessarily make it a military organization either. IMO the whole schtick about Starfleet being non-military is part of their whole “the Future-is-more-enlightened/Progressive” mystique. IOW, it’s not just 20th Century Capitalist Jingoism (or worse yet 18th Century White Man’s Burden) armed with 23rd-26th Century tech. Instead it’s a kinder, gentler, more enlightened _society_ which has kinder, gentler, more enlightened instruments of power and of exploration. In that supposedly enlightened world one could have and wield planet-destroying power with much less martial intent than we presently can imagine. And with much less martial thinking “polluting” the purity of exploration for it’s own sake. IANA trekspert, but it seems to me this trope held together, barely, during many (most?) episodes of the original series. Even when things got violent, in most episodes they were battling raw strangeness, not differing politics. But once the subsequent series & films morphed the Trekkish universe until the main story line across whole arcs of episodes became armed clash of civilizations with the Federation being the unabashed Good Guys, any pretense Starfleet was other than military became wishful thinking on the part of the scriptwriters. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/27 "2020-10-02T17:40:58Z")
Yeah. It also made much more sense with pacifist “don’t raise shields until they fire on you at least twice” Picard than it did with “punch all aliens in the face” Kirk. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/28 "2020-10-02T17:43:44Z")
Kirk was much more by the book than Picard ever was. And Picard almost always had the superior vessel in his tactical engagements versus Kirk did, and the few times he wasn’t sure he was pretty trigger happy. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/29 "2020-10-02T17:47:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > “punch all aliens in the face” Kirk. And why did all aliens even have a face? ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/30 "2020-10-02T17:48:43Z")
Because they had to go to such ridiculous lengths to make sure we knew that the alternate timeline was in a war. “Captain’s Log: Stardate xxx” becomes "Military Log: Combat Date " ? Really? The Captain while on the bridge carries a phaser with him? They went way overboard, because in the normal timeline Starfleet was already pretty darn military. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/31 "2020-10-02T17:54:46Z")
The writers have had a devil of a time explaining away the differences in the various iterations. They made Commander Starfleet the villain in ST The Undiscovered Country and expressly stated that the warships were being decommissioned to explain the “not military mindset” of TNG, only for the TNG episodes to become much more warlike, with Picard going on frigging special ops missions against the Cardassians. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/32 "2020-10-02T18:06:41Z")
Said another way, if there’s a giant contradiction at the center of your contrived dramatic universe, then maintaining any sort of logical continuity becomes nigh impossible. Soon that’s the largest component of disbelief the writers need to induce in the audience. Which is a tall order. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/33 "2020-10-02T18:49:01Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > IANA trekspert, but it seems to me this trope held together, barely, during many (most?) episodes of the original series. Even when things got violent, in most episodes they were battling raw strangeness, not differing politics. The idea that Starfleet wasn’t a military was not present in the original series. In the TOS episode “Errand of Mercy,” Kirk says, “I’m a soldier, not a diplomat.” And as been pointed out already, even in the movie era, in _The Wrath of Khan,_ when Marcus complains about the military coming to take the Genesis project he’s talking about Starfleet. Nobody disagrees with his assessment. It wasn’t until TOS that the ludicrous claim that the Federation wasn’t a military organization was made. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/34 "2020-10-02T18:50:48Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > It wasn’t until TOS that the ludicrous claim that the Federation wasn’t a military organization was made. You mean TNG? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/35 "2020-10-02T18:57:27Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > You mean TNG? No. I was just demonstrating how a version of me from the Mirror Universe would answer. Yeah! That’s it. That’s the ticket! Okay, you got me. I meant TNG. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2020, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/36 "2020-10-02T19:05:22Z")
Lions and TOSes & TNGs! Oh my! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/37 "2020-10-03T02:10:25Z")
The Hollywood Reporter has an [article](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/the-classic-star-trek-episode-gene-roddenberry-hated) about the TNG episode “[Family](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation))”, which Gene Roddenberry hated. Among other things, he didn’t like the conflict between Picard and his brother. “Roddenberry argued that this type of hostile relationship between siblings simply didn’t exist in the show’s 24th century setting; in Roddenberry’s mind, the Federation he envisioned was a utopia with no interpersonal conflicts (which often made it difficult for writers of an hourlong drama to, well, make an hourlong drama).” So that fits with the whole “Starfleet isn’t military” and “money doesn’t exist” thing. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/38 "2020-10-03T04:34:48Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > The Hollywood Reporter has an [article](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/the-classic-star-trek-episode-gene-roddenberry-hated) about the TNG episode “[Family](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation))”, which Gene Roddenberry hated. More examples that Roddenberry nad lost it by then. I think Family was a great episode (though I know i’m in the SD minority here). I liked the arguments between Picard and his brother. I hated when they killed him off camera in Generations. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/39 "2020-10-03T05:00:27Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I think Family was a great episode (though I know i’m in the SD minority here). 😳 Not really, I thought _Family_ was considered one of the best TNG and Trek episodes. ---
**Author:** ![GrassFox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b19c9b/32.png) [@GrassFox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrassFox)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2020, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023/40 "2020-10-03T05:02:25Z")
If you are fighting a war on behalf of an organization or planet, you are a military organzation. The war against the Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans, or Borg is fought with your military. Ordering an officer to risk their life to keep the peace or save the ship is only done by your military leader or commander. Your supervisor at Walmart or Amazon can’t do that. Or maybe they are mercenaries? In Star Wars, the rebels also had a military structure, but is hard to call them a military organization. They are militants fighting for a cause, but need a military structure to organize their forces to fight in a directed tactical manner. In Star Trek, they say they are explorers, but have tactical weapons they claim are just for defense purposes. They go to war to protect their right to explore. Kinda like Columbus and Magellan, who say they were explorers, but had no problem defeating a race of indigenous people to claim their land as their own that they “discovered”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-starfleet-insist-they-are-not-military/922023.md?page=3)