# Why Does the "Pledge Atheist" Have to be Such a Nutcase? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 1, 2002, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827 "2002-07-01T14:07:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/21 "2002-07-02T02:00:28Z")
WSLer wrote: > [@](#): > > Who, praytell is Jack Chick? The author of the dreaded [Chick Tracts](http://www.chick.com). ([Dark Dungeons](http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp) being a perennial favorite.) ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/22 "2002-07-02T02:01:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by WSLer \* > \*\* > > Who, praytell is Jack Chick? I have never heard of him, and I’ve spent a fair amount of time watching various and sundry TV evangelists. \*\* [Jack Chick](http://www.chick.com) You also may also want to do a Pit search on “Chick,” as he is often prominently featured in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/23 "2002-07-02T02:10:58Z")
I think we needed people like Madeline Murray-O’Hare. Until she was embezzled from and brutally murdered, she was a constant voice for atheism in a country that clearly needed it. The smallest 1% of the population ethnic minority gets attention and consideration heaped upon it by powerful white people while the monotheistic majority pretends atheists don’t even exist. She had to be in their faces screaming just to get noticed. What I’m peeved about is that this leftist nutball had to be the guy pressing the case. As a strong free market advocate and Libertarian, I’m sick to death of athiesm always being linked to hippies and communists. As for the kid, I don’t know what kind of criticism he/she will take. In high school, I made my objection to the “under god” phrase well known by always skipping it when reciting the pledge, loudly saying “indivisible” while the rest of the class was affirming their monothiesic faith. The class noticed, were somewhat bemused, but nobody ostracized me. That was Springfield, Missouri, home of the Assemblies of God, deep in the Bible Belt, full to the brim with Protestant Christians. I think I would have been praised by classmates in a more liberal town like where this kid lives. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/24 "2002-07-02T02:14:39Z")
I, for one, hope the jerks on the school board are prescient enough to realize that Newdow has a ready made and certainly winnable lawsuit against them if they don’t ensure his daughter isn’t a victim in this. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/25 "2002-07-02T05:32:13Z")
MONTY – > [@](#): > > I, for one, hope the jerks on the school board are prescient enough to realize that Newdow has a ready made and certainly winnable lawsuit against them if they don’t ensure his daughter isn’t a victim in this. Reasonable steps should certainly be taken to prevent her from being unduly harassed, but I fail to see how the school board could possibly “insure” she doesn’t suffer some peer-directed censure because of it. No doubt she will, and that was a chance her father was willing to take to stand up for this principle. Whether that was the correct decision or not, given her age, is of course a matter of personal opinion. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/26 "2002-07-02T06:03:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > **No doubt she will, and that was a chance her father was willing to take to stand up for this principle.** And how is this the father’s fault? When someone is lynched it is the bigot’s fault, blaming the victim is in no way right. I agree with you that we can’t count on “christian charity”, but it is the fault of mean spirited bigots, not those who stand up and demand their rights. ---
**Author:** ![stankow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@stankow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stankow)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/27 "2002-07-02T06:35:21Z")
As George Bernard Shaw put it, _A reasonable man adapts himself to suit his environment. An unreasonable man persists in attempting to adapt his environment to suit himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man._ That being said, I have to say that this guy doesn’t seem like that much of a nutter. He’s a doctor _and_ a lawyer, fercryinoutloud. Anyone who can put “MD JD” after his name has pretty much shown that he’s at the very least capable of following through on his craziness, regardless of whether he has decided to do it with shoes. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_Bowe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@Doug\_Bowe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_Bowe)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/28 "2002-07-02T07:26:20Z")
## Mojo said it first. The Wall Street Journal editorial described the guy as a crank. Okay, so he’s a really educated crank. He believes his stuff so strongly he’s willing to put off his neighbors and community regardless of personal discomfort. I doubt if anyone here would relish seeing him move in next door. He’s the stereotype who would bring something like this to court. Eisenhower saw him coming when he signed the bill in 1954. Red Skelton saw him coming in his monologue of 1969. Given the expectations, where has this guy been sleeping all these years? ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/29 "2002-07-02T07:35:15Z")
About the Red Skelton monologue- I would like to apologise for all the years I thought of him as a terribly unfunny, creepy old man. He was obviously a comic genious to have come up with such a spot-on parody of the type of brain dead glurge right wingers love to spew at any opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Hamadryad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6de8d8/32.png) [@Hamadryad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamadryad)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/30 "2002-07-02T13:42:51Z")
I pledge allegiance to the Republic for which the flag stands; one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. I dunno. I’ve always…and by “always” I mean for as long as I’ve been able to think logically (which some may say is still YEARS off)…thought it was weird that we pledged allegiance to a **flag** , with the Republic for which it stands as an afterthought. I’m one of those nutjobs who says the Pledge in a carrying voice, so that when I say “One nation, {obvious pause}, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all,” the omission is as glaringly obvious as I can make it. I agree with the ruling. I know it won’t stand. And I’m sorry the guy who brought the suit sometimes comes across as a nutcase. I guess those of us who agree with him feel much like the conservative gay man who has to try to insure domestic partnership laws are passed by people whose only exposure to gays is the news footage they see of the Cockettes. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Syzygy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syzygy)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/31 "2002-07-02T14:19:24Z")
Hey, **Monty** , get a clue. Two words in a boring morning pledge are not equivalent to daily religious services. I recited the Pledge every school day for twelve years, and guess what? I’m an atheist. Did my parents freak out and bring suit because they thought I was too innocent and delicate to say _two fucking words_? Did I become all confused and conflicted because the school _forced me_ to worship God? Give me a fucking break. This guy is a moron, and he gives rational atheists like most of the ones on this board a bad name. The ironic thing is that although his daughters weren’t being persecuted for not saying the Pledge, they will almost certainly receive unwanted attention now that this asshat has had his reactionary bluster blared all over the country. I feel sorry for them. They _are_ victims, not of two insignificant fucking words, but of their ignorant father. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/32 "2002-07-02T14:32:02Z")
to those of you like syzygy who feel that ‘two fucking words’ do not matter, would you support this pledge: I pledge allegiance to the Republic for which the flag stands; one nation, fuck niggers! with liberty and justice for all. ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/33 "2002-07-02T14:42:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \ ***In high school,** I made my objection to the “under god” phrase well known by always skipping it when reciting the pledge, loudly saying “indivisible” while the rest of the class was affirming their monothiesic faith. Bolding mine. Good for you. This child, and millions of other children who recite the pledge daily, are in elementary school. Yeah, the Pledge didn’t make anyone from an atheist to a believer, but it helps to cement the association between patriotism and religious sentiment (and Judeo-Christian-brand monotheism in particular). If you think that doesn’t harm atheists, you’ve got your head up your ass. If you’ve never had some frothing diphit try to trump you in a separation of church and state debate with “It’s ‘one nation _**[under God**_’, you commie Satanist hippy!” then you haven’t been around the block many times. Jesus, look around and the backlash. Atheists are being made to seem like unpatriotic boogeymen . . . just because we would like to join our fellow Americans in recite a Pledge of Allegiance that doesn’t fly in the face of the beliefs of 10% of the country. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/34 "2002-07-02T15:30:00Z")
GRENDEL – > [@](#): > > And how is this the father’s fault? When someone is lynched it is the bigot’s fault, blaming the victim is in no way right. Did I say it was the father’s fault? Did I say it was appropriate to “blame the victim”? Read what I said, not what you wish I’d said. I’m not assigning blame, I’m looking at the realities of putting a child in a situation where he or she will suffer some degree of hostility, for a principle his or her parents believes in and wants their child to know is worth fighting for. It’s the same situation Ruby Bridges’ parents put her in when they decided she, at the age of six, would be the first black child to integrate a Southern school. It must be a very difficult decision to make, and whether it’s the _correct_ one – to make your child an instrument of social justice as you see it, at some cost to him or her – is something only the parents can decide. Because it’s unrealistic to think this won’t bounce back on that child to some degree or another; it will. Whether it should or it shouldn’t – and clearly it shouldn’t – it will. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/35 "2002-07-02T15:37:45Z")
Shh, \*\* Gex Gex\*\*, not so loud. If Trent Lott hears you, he’ll try to get Congress to add those words to the Pledge. ---
**Author:** ![Syzygy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Syzygy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syzygy)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/36 "2002-07-02T19:01:31Z")
Yeah, **gex gex** , “fuck niggers” is equivalent to “under God”. I don’t know why I never thought of that. How about “kill babies” or “burn puppies”? :rolleyes: I said the words were insignificant because I don’t see how any reasonably intelligent individual could be so inflamed by the simple words “under God.” Say those words to people on the street, then say your proposed alternative, or mine, and see which provokes a reaction. See how equivalent they are? Of course, I was rather incensed by **Monty** ’s tone. I can see that certain people might be offended by the words. But in my mind, they are still not worth a lawsuit. They are not intended to be malicious, nor do they represent an intrusive attempt at reprogramming wicked little atheists. Take them out if you want. I’m just saying that I don’t think it makes much difference either way. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/37 "2002-07-02T19:39:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Syzygy \* > **I said the words were insignificant because I don’t see how any reasonably intelligent individual could be so inflamed by the simple words "under God."** Because they suck donkey doo-doo, that’s why. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/38 "2002-07-02T21:46:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > \*\*GRENDEL – Did I say it was the father’s fault? Did I say it was appropriate to “blame the victim”? Read what I said, not what you wish I’d said. \*\* My response was directed toward several posters who seem to be blaming the father. Hell, I think calling him a nut case is pretty rude- the guy is well spoken and in the interviews I’ve seen and read has managed to sidestep obvious traps being set by the “liberal media”. The nut jobs, the ones deserving of your ire are the ones who you _know_ are planning to take out their hostility on an innocent little girl. Because they are such “good christians”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2002, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/39 "2002-07-02T22:28:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Syzygy \* > \*\*Hey, **Monty** , get a clue. Two words in a boring morning pledge are not equivalent to daily religious services. I recited the Pledge every school day for twelve years, and guess what? I’m an atheist. So? I went to church for even longer, and I’m an atheist. > [@](#): > > The ironic thing is that although his daughters weren’t being persecuted for not saying the Pledge, they will almost certainly receive unwanted attention now that this asshat has had his reactionary bluster blared all over the country. This is exactly why he’s justified. If someone can’t complain about the Pledge without having their kid being teased, then clearly there’s coercion to go along with the Pledge. This kid is basically being held hostage to the Religious Right, and the father is being blamed for it. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2002, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827/40 "2002-07-03T04:09:35Z")
When I was in middle school, I had a bone-headed science teacher who decided to gloss over evolution (“class dismissed! oh yeah, read chapter 6 this weekend”) and bring in a creationist speaker and a few young-earth videos instead. My dad found out and he didn’t hesitate to contact the principal, superintendent, and school board. Soon afterwards, the teacher was gone for a week “visiting his sick aunt” without pay. But before he left, he must have told some of the wrestlers he coached what had happened, because a few of them started harassing me about it. Yeah, it was unfortunate that I had to put up with shit at school for much the same reason that the “pledge atheist’s” daughter probably will, but my father was right to call my teacher on his idiocy, and Newdow was right to call the government on their idiocy. Kids are always going to make fun of each other for some reason. That’s no excuse for allowing religious pressure at school. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-pledge-atheist-have-to-be-such-a-nutcase/116827.md?page=3)