# Why does the right give a pass to damaging corporate behavior? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 15, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092 "2013-06-15T21:32:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/141 "2013-06-19T00:40:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s why we need to decouple HC insurance from your job. You don’t lose your car insurance when you change jobs, do you? > > OTOH, no one should be required to sell you “insurance” for an existing condition. You don’t buy a totaled car, get insurance on it, and then get to make a claim. That’s the reason for the mandate, to prevent people from only getting insurance after they have a problem. But people get dropped with problems today. Auto companies don’t get to drop you because someone ran into your car before paying - health insurance companies did. (Or at least before paying for the full course of treatment.) Auto insurance is cheaper because there is a cap on payments, and, excluding personal injury cases, collision coverage has a lower cap on the value of the car. Also people inevitably get sick (unless a piano falls on them) but not everyone has a big car claim. So auto insurance is cheaper. And mandated. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/142 "2013-06-19T00:43:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > . . . OTOH, no one should be required to sell you “insurance” for an existing condition. . . . But how does this differ from “You have our permission to die?” If the individual cannot afford the necessary medication or surgery, what, then? Bankruptcy? In that case, the public is paying for it. So…why not simply have the public pay for it? You’re not offering a solution that actually keeps people alive. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/143 "2013-06-19T00:46:07Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > But how does this differ from “You have our permission to die?” If the individual cannot afford the necessary medication or surgery, what, then? Bankruptcy? In that case, the public is paying for it. So…why not simply have the public pay for it? > > You’re not offering a solution that actually keeps people alive. Well, I already said we might as well just have a European Single Payer system rather than Obamacare. Said it twice. You don’t like that? But my preferred solution, if we were starting from scratch, would be private insurance with government assistance, either through vouchers or something like Medicaid, for those who can’t afford it. But keep in mind that most people can afford insurance. And decouple it from your employer!! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/144 "2013-06-19T00:46:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do you really not get it? You can require everyone to have HC insurance, but not involve their employers. Most states do that with car insurance, and we don’'t require employers to provide car insurance to their workers. Want to mandate that all employers who now pay insurance would be forced to increase pay by that amount - or a bit more, to make up for the lack of bargaining power of the single insuree? > [@](#): > > As I said above, I would prefer that to Obamacare. And just about everyone else on the left would also. Wonder why we didn’t get it? > [@](#): > > Make an argument, and if someone incorrectly calls it “socialism”, I’ve got your back. Until then, it’s a strawman. You never heard anything called socialized medicine? :eek: I bet you could find a cite about Obamacare being called socialist in about five seconds. [Here’s one.](http://spectator.org/archives/2013/01/18/is-obamacare-socialism-or-fasc) Took me less time than that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/145 "2013-06-19T00:58:31Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Want to mandate that all employers who now pay insurance would be forced to increase pay by that amount - or a bit more, to make up for the lack of bargaining power of the single insuree? No, I’m not a fan of mandates. Right now, if you have insurance, that’s considered part of your compensation. Companies figure this out all the time. Pay would have to raise if people were expected to buy their own insurance. That’s how the market works. > [@](#): > > You never heard anything called socialized medicine? :eek: I bet you could find a cite about Obamacare being called socialist in about five seconds. > [Here’s one.](http://spectator.org/archives/2013/01/18/is-obamacare-socialism-or-fasc) Took me less time than that. So what? That post was directed at me and my argument. I don’t care what someone else not on this MB or participating in this thread said. Go back to post 133 and if you don’t think I called “strawman” correctly, then make your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/146 "2013-06-19T01:07:17Z")
Here’s a radical solution: have a system where the same healthcare is available to all, where decisions on the necessity of a test or procedure are not based on whether you have a fancy insurance package or not, where everyone can get problems checked before they become major issues, where pre-existing conditions bear no relation to your medical expenses, where you can arrive for your appointment giving only your name and leave after your appointment without even a hint of paperwork. I wonder what the financial cost is of the unnecessary burdens, including the results of conditions going untreated, caused by the current US healthcare system. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that sick days, emergency treatment of preventable issues, financial anxiety and actual deaths have a huge dollar cost to the economy and taxpayers. I would be equally unsurprised to learn that such inequality is fuel for a “healthy” capitalist economy. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/147 "2013-06-19T03:41:31Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > And with one post, therein lies the heart of what the OP is talking about. There is a third choice, however much you want to pretend it doesn’t exist, John. Walmart can keep staff hours, keep the same prices, and just make less profit. Wal-mart has a 3 to 5% profit margin. Paying for Obamacare would probably put it in the red. April 30, 2013 3.31% Jan. 31, 2013 4.38% Oct. 31, 2012 3.19% July 31, 2012 3.51% April 30, 2012 3.31% Jan. 31, 2012 4.19% Oct. 31, 2011 3.03% July 31, 2011 3.48% April 30, 2011 3.26% Jan. 31, 2011 5.20% Oct. 31, 2010 3.37% July 31, 2010 3.47% April 30, 2010 3.31% Jan. 31, 2010 4.19% Oct. 31, 2009 3.16% July 31, 2009 3.44% April 30, 2009 3.21% Jan. 31, 2009 3.49% Oct. 31, 2008 3.19% July 31, 2008 3.37% > **[Walmart Profit Margin (Quarterly) Trends | YCharts](https://ycharts.com/companies/WMT/profit_margin)** > > In depth view into Walmart Profit Margin (Quarterly) including historical data from 1972, charts and stats. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/148 "2013-06-19T04:20:34Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Wal-mart has a 3 to 5% profit margin. Paying for Obamacare would probably put it in the red. On what cost analaysis do you base that conclusion? Or is it just common sense? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/149 "2013-06-19T04:29:41Z")
[WalMart profit](http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2012/snapshots/2255.html)15.7 billion. Employees 2.2 million. Appx. 7100 per employee. Surely, given their size, they can find a plan for far less than that. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/150 "2013-06-19T05:34:05Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Wal-mart has a 3 to 5% profit margin. Paying for Obamacare would probably put it in the red. That seems quite high for a massive retailer like WalMart. From [here.](http://www.retailers.com/FAQRetrieve.aspx?ID=51529) > [@](#): > > Q. What is a good profit margin for a small retail store? > > A. Although a retail store’s typical initial markup on merchandise could be 40 percent or more, actual profitability takes into account all expenses, such as payroll, rent, utilities, insurance and advertising. > > While large retail corporations usually have very slim profit margins (less than 2 percent in 2000), a small store typically needs a higher margin because of its lower volume. High volume retailers and grocery stores always have relatively low profit margins - that is the business model. I don’t have time to research it, but I’d suspect that payroll at WalMart is trivial compared to the cost of product, so it is not like increasing payroll by 5% for insurance is going to increase their costs by 5% - or anything like it. Also, given how WalMart is losing out by having unmotivated staff as compared to Costco, better treatment might actually increase profit margins. Whenever I see conservatives say stuff like a 3% profit margin for a retailer is low, I see a conservative who knows nothing about business. WalMart and Apple have very different business models. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/151 "2013-06-19T05:37:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, I’m not a fan of mandates. Right now, if you have insurance, that’s considered part of your compensation. Companies figure this out all the time. Pay would have to raise if people were expected to buy their own insurance. That’s how the market works. Have to? With our unemployment rate? Not at all obvious. Or it might get raised, but not enough to cover insurance costs. > [@](#): > > So what? That post was directed at me and my argument. I don’t care what someone else not on this MB or participating in this thread said. Go back to post 133 and if you don’t think I called “strawman” correctly, then make your argument. You said > [@](#): > > Make an argument, and if someone incorrectly calls it “socialism”, I’ve got your back. Until then, it’s a strawman. Someone did. Maybe not in this thread, but you didn’t say that. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/152 "2013-06-19T12:24:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Actual unemployment is still in double digits. Cities like Detroit are going bankrupt and the Federal Government is 17 trillion in debt. Baby boomers are starting to retire which will dip into social security. Yet, the stock market is at an all time high. Wonder how that comes to be. The reality is that this has little to do with Obamacare, and more to do with the attitude of businesses towards their workers. Workers are not assets, they are liabilities. When you have an asset, you maximize its value. Liabilities, you minimize their value. Companies have gotten very good at minimizing the value of their workforce. They install expert systems to do all the thinking, so that the worker only needs to be vertical, warm blooded, and present. Workers need no skills, no work ethic, no decision making ability, they stand and hit the buttons they’re told to hit, move the boxes they’re told to move, etc. Thus, you can pay them squat, give them no benefits and rest assured that they’re not going to find a better job somewhere else, because all the businesses are doing the same thing, and the job market sucks. Most of those extra earnings from cutting the value of your workforce line the pockets of the big investors. It contributes to the increasing wealth inequality and stagnant real wages during decades of increasing productivity. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/153 "2013-06-19T12:50:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do you really not get it? It’s you who keeps going around in circles without getting it. Unless you’ve been deliberately confusing us, you prefer UHC through individual mandates and taxes to employer-financing, _but prefer no mandates at all to either of those._ Let us suppose 30% of voters agree with you. Many of us also prefer non-employer UHC to UHC with employer mandates, but prefer either of those to no UHC at all. Let’s suppose 45% of voters are in that category. Finally, 25% of voters prefer employer mandates to no UHC, but have been deceived by cries of “socialism” to reject any non-employer UHC. Let’s suppose the choice is made democratically. What do we choose, given these three choices? Supporters of single-payer and related UHC systems only have 45% so needed to ally with one of the other groups. By default we ended up with the option among the three that you, **John Mace** , like least of all. Had you allied with us instead, we could have had the form of UHC most of us prefer. You pays your money and you takes your choice. Stop complaining. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/154 "2013-06-19T13:56:51Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > You said > > Someone did. Maybe not in this thread, but you didn’t say that. Well, you got me! You sure did. Got any other tricks up your sleeves? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/155 "2013-06-20T16:09:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do you really not get it? You can require everyone to have HC insurance, but not involve their employers. Most states do that with car insurance, and we don’'t require employers to provide car insurance to their workers. No you can’t. Because the GOP have lied to the American people and fomented so much fear and misinformation that it cannot pass right now. Sure, in an ideal world, maybe we’d both get the UHC that we want. But I’m speaking pragmatically. We cannot get it in this world, therefore, we must get employers to pay for it. Because the alternative is much much worse > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Make an argument, and if someone incorrectly calls it “socialism”, I’ve got your back. Until then, it’s a strawman. Ok. My argument is that it is perfectly moral and legal and Constitutional for the federal government to force you to buy something or face penalties. I have no problems with that and think everyone in the US should be forced to buy health insurance of some kind. I also think its fine for the government to define gun ownership strictly to essentially eliminate the right for most Americans 😉 > [@Clothahump](#): > > Wal-mart has a 3 to 5% profit margin. Paying for Obamacare would probably put it in the red. In gross profit, they still make billions. Maybe that 3-5% should be a 1-3%. Given Walmart’s size, that’s still billions. If you’re trying to get me to feel sorry for them, you’ve failed ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/156 "2013-06-20T16:24:05Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Because the GOP have lied to the American people and fomented so much fear and misinformation that it cannot pass right now. Actually it was Obama who poisoned the well by lying about Obamacare. Remember him\* saying that the fees under Obamacare absolutely weren’t a tax, and then going before the Supreme Court and admitting that he had been lying thru his teeth? That’s what I mean. Regards, Shodan \*Okay, I know you don’t, but it happened nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/157 "2013-06-20T17:03:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Actually it was Obama who poisoned the well by lying about Obamacare. Remember him\* saying that the fees under Obamacare absolutely weren’t a tax, and then going before the Supreme Court and admitting that he had been lying thru his teeth? That’s what I mean. > > Regards, > Shodan > > \*Okay, I know you don’t, but it happened nonetheless. We’ve discussed this. Belief that it wasn’t a tax that later gets retconned into a tax doesn’t make the belief a lie. At most, his belief that it wasn’t a tax was wrong. So what? People are wrong sometimes, even Obama, though he’s wrong less than most of us. Besides, if he had to sell it as a tax, it would have been harder to pass, and in this case, it was more necessary to pass the bill than the characterize it semantically accurately. Could have called it a health blowjob and I still would have supported it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/158 "2013-06-20T17:21:43Z")
It wasn’t a retcon - it was the whole basis for his authority to create Obamacare. Otherwise it would have been un-Constitutional. Obama used to teach Constitutional law - he knew all along he was lying. > [@](#): > > Besides, if he had to sell it as a tax, it would have been harder to pass, and in this case, it was more necessary to pass the bill than the characterize it semantically accurately. It was certainly easier to lie than tell the truth, and you are probably correct that Obamacare would not have passed if Obama had not lied about it. But that is the problem - Obama did lie, to get his health care bill passed, and that poisoned the well for anyone except Obama-ites. > [@](#): > > Could have called it a health blowjob and I still would have supported it. Right, but that is what I mean - you don’t care that Obama lied, and support the bill anyway. And yet object when you think the GOP lied. The issue is how non-Obama-ites see things. You may swallow it and be ready to fall for the next lie - not necessarily the rest of us, Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/159 "2013-06-20T18:04:06Z")
I don’t understand the need to place labels and use them as substitutes for thought. The financial mandates of Obamacare are what they are; there were never any secrets about them. Whether a given lawyer or dictionary would call them “tax” has no effect on what those mandates are. You can like them or dislike them, but to base your affection on whether they are labeled as “tax” seems to me to be just a way to avoid thought. And to accuse of Obama of “lying” because a given jurist chose to call the mandates a “tax” is to grasp at straws. One sees this a lot. “Are pension schemes Ponzi schemes?” They share some similarities but not others. Please base your approval on the actual advantages and disadvantages, not useless scrutiny of a dictionary. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092/160 "2013-06-20T18:54:42Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The financial mandates of Obamacare are what they are; there were never any secrets about them. That is incorrect, obviously. Obama denied that he was imposing new taxes, and both **YogSosoth** and I agree that he lied in order to get the bill passed. So that it imposed new taxes was a secret, at least to the extent that Obama could manage it. Obama said “absolutely” that it wasn’t a tax. He was lying in order to deceive the public into supporting his bill, thus keeping secret what he knew all along wasn’t true. > [@](#): > > Whether a given lawyer or dictionary would call them “tax” has no effect on what those mandates are. Again, as mentioned, this is totally incorrect. Obama refused to admit they were taxes (falsely). If he had admitted it, the bill may not have passed. And the whole basis of his argument before the Supreme Court was that it _was_ a tax - exactly the opposite of what he earlier claimed. He had to admit that it was a tax, because otherwise the bill would have been found un-Constitutional. So there are two instances where it matters very much what you call it. Earlier, Obama denied that it was a tax, and was lying. Then he admitted in court that it was a tax, and therefore he was lying when he claimed earlier that he wasn’t going to raise taxes on the middle class, and that he was lying when he denied that it was a tax. > [@](#): > > And to accuse of Obama of “lying” because a given jurist chose to call the mandates a “tax” is to grasp at straws… Please base your approval on the actual advantages and disadvantages, not useless scrutiny of a dictionary. **YogSosoth** claimed that UHC couldn’t pass because the GOP lied about it. So you should be addressing yourself to him. Because Obama is the one lying, not the GOP, and if anyone hurt the chances of UHC by lying, it’s him - it was his bill. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-right-give-a-pass-to-damaging-corporate-behavior/661092.md?page=9)