# Why does the U.S still have the death penalty? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 26, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102 "2014-07-26T16:09:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/101 "2014-07-27T22:31:53Z")
Speaking of which: If the death penalty doesn’t deter crime, is there any proof that life imprisonment deters crime? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/102 "2014-07-27T22:34:00Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Speaking of which: > > If the death penalty doesn’t deter crime, is there any proof that life imprisonment deters crime? Not sure, but wrt the death penalty, one only need concern oneself with whether or not it deters crime more than life in prison. However, give the statistics of how criminal activity declines with age, one wonders about the usefulness of imprisoning people past the age of, say, 65. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/103 "2014-07-27T22:51:26Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Pretty fucking tired of getting lectured about being civilized by people from countries what assraped the world for close to a thousand years. Countries what didn’t become civilized until they had plunged the world into unimaginably bloody total war twice. Oh, and racked up a can’t-sleep-at-night bodycount as their various colonies peeled off and ate themseles. European moralizing is a deeply, darkly, fucked up joke. Interesting, though, that those countries seem to have scaled back their sodomy, while the US continues to fervently thrust away at the soft parts of the world. Kind of barometric, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/104 "2014-07-27T22:59:08Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Nor does it take a lot of thought to see the difference between an actual human life and a biological organism whose status is, at least, manifestly contentious. I have no more sympathy for most of those on death row than you do, but if someone loses claim to humanity after being convicted of a murder (not necessarily even guilty of it, but that’s another matter) then where and why do you draw the line? Why not have fun with it and make the execution as painfully entertaining as possible, as primitive societies used to do, and as some still do (e.g.- stoning for adultery)? Wouldn’t that provide even better “deterrence”, not to mention entertainment? I don’t see any obvious right or wrong here. A fetus is human life, it’s undeniable. It’s homo sapien cells and it’s alive, there isn’t any biological debate on that point. So I don’t see the reason you need to use the generic “organism.” It’s a human life, period. The question that actually matters is “for legal purposes is it a person afforded rights, or not?” My position is that it’s irrelevant, I don’t actually care if a fetus is a person or not because I see no intrinsic sanctity in life, human or otherwise. But since most people that get abortions are from populations I don’t want reproducing, I love abortion as it is practice in the United States and want to see more of it. I leave the person/not person debate up to those engaging in ethical debates or legal debates, but let’s not throw out 20th century science in your zeal to be pro-choice and refer to something that can only be classified as homo sapien an “organism.” We know what type of organism it is, it’s a developing animal, of the species homo sapien. We can prove this with DNA if you want. > [@](#): > > It seems to me that what we do is hold back just enough so that we can piously claim moral absolution, but still get our vengeful satisfaction. In actual fact the death penalty supporters don’t have a moral leg to stand on. Have a look at the general culture of death penalty communities in terms of things like social services for the poor and disadvantaged. The presence of the death penalty seems to speak volumes about the community’s level of social progress and compassion. If you read the link in my previous post, it seems that not only did Texas put an innocent man to death, but it appears that he was railroaded by an appallingly corrupt judicial system. You seem to equate more social services with “good” and less social services with “bad.” Some people have a fundamentally different moral calculus, you don’t get to claim “liberal good” and “conservative bad” and then say anything that is conservative or more conservative than liberal is bad / uncivilized and anything that is liberal or more liberal is more civilized. Some countries and some States make a rational choice to not provide wasteful and stupid social services for everyone. Britain has actually become less socially progressive by your measures in the last few decades. They used to prop up entire failed industries just to give people make work jobs, and they no longer do that. Even things like council housing have been cut back as I understand it. So is Britain more civilized as you assert or less? Because they both reduced social services and abolished the death penalty in the past 30 years. Of course, it’s worth mentioning the British death penalty after the 1940s really only existed in theory (for treason) and wasn’t practiced. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/105 "2014-07-27T23:01:04Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Speaking of which: > > If the death penalty doesn’t deter crime, is there any proof that life imprisonment deters crime? I don’t think most punishment schemes deter crime meaningfully. I also don’t think lighter punishment schemes encourage crime. I mean, there are a few very calculating criminals who are extremely concerned with making sure they avoid punishment, but even they are calculating they will not get caught. Most criminals don’t even think that far ahead, they’re just acting, many times they will never get caught and they probably give it little thought afterward. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/106 "2014-07-27T23:03:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > It’s kind of hard to have a “massive over-reaction to multiple murder.” Just saying. We certainly overreacted to the mass murders of 9/11, spending trillions of dollars and killing tens if not hundreds of thousands in addition to losing thousands of our own soldiers. Back to the topic- it still exists for the same reason we make sure our mass murderers are the best equipped mass murderers in the world- the right wing of the Republican Party. Our most backward voters make enough congressmen and legislators cower in fear that they don’t dare make any attempt to make the US a more civilized society. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/107 "2014-07-27T23:13:37Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Interesting, though, that those countries seem to have scaled back their sodomy, while the US continues to fervently thrust away at the soft parts of the world. Kind of barometric, I guess. From where I sit, it looks less like they renounced assraping the world on moral grounds than it does like they are making the best of being unable to get it up anymore. When I was a kid in the 60s and 70s, the shit they did trying to cling to their possessions in Africa and Asia does not exactly cover them with glory. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/108 "2014-07-27T23:14:18Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > We certainly overreacted to the mass murders of 9/11, spending trillions of dollars and killing tens if not hundreds of thousands in addition to losing thousands of our own soldiers. Agreed > [@](#): > > Back to the topic- it still exists for the same reason we make sure our mass murderers are the best equipped mass murderers in the world- the right wing of the Republican Party. Our most backward voters make enough congressmen and legislators cower in fear that they don’t dare make any attempt to make the US a more civilized society. Oh, please. Are Democratic Senators afraid of losing the votes of “the right wing of the Republican Party”? My state, CA, has a supermajority of Democrats in the legislature, and they haven’t eliminated the death penalty. Not because they are afraid of losing “right wing Republican” votes. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/109 "2014-07-27T23:23:05Z")
Just briefly… > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I don’t see any obvious right or wrong here. A fetus is human life, it’s undeniable. It’s homo sapien cells and it’s alive, there isn’t any biological debate on that point. So I don’t see the reason you need to use the generic “organism.” It’s a human life, period. My argument might have been clearer if I had said “human being” instead of “human life”, thus: “Nor does it take a lot of thought to see the difference between **an actual human being** and a biological organism whose status is, at least, manifestly contentious.” There isn’t any sane argument that someone convicted of murder isn’t a human being any more, whereas at least in the early states of gestation in which many anti-abortionists wish to prohibit women’s rights the claimed “human life” is a microscopic spheroid with provably nothing remotely like a brain, let alone sentience or experiential awareness. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You seem to equate more social services with “good” and less social services with “bad.” Some people have a fundamentally different moral calculus … It’s not really about “liberal” vs. “conservative”, but more about fundamental injustices in society and the fundamental value of compassion. I’m not interested in circular arguments about how the alleged murderer supposedly “deserves to die” – I’m interested in the impact of institutionalized savagery on societal values when there are civilized methods by which it can be equally well protected. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/110 "2014-07-27T23:38:49Z")
> [@EdwinAmi](#): > > Well, England is more like us and less like the rest of Europe. You are our grandaddy after all! > > You probably didn’t get pickpocketed in those places because you were a tourist and living as a tourist. As a tourist you are sticking to the nice areas, which you have the money to do because you’re only staying there for a week or a few days. Living on a budget all year long is a different story, and you gotta live in high crime areas I’ve never had my pocket picked in Paris in 35 years or so, nor have I been victim of an attempt. In fact, I know nobody who had his pocket picked. And you have it wrong about residents vs tourists. Tourists are vastly more likely to be victims of pickpockets for several reasons : -Residents are accustomed to their surroundings. They can notice unusual behaviors more easily. -Residents are less distracted. They aren’t roaming around map in hands gawking at buildings. -Residents typically don’t have much valuables on them. Typically only a small amount of cash. Plenty of tourists go around with wads of cash in their wallet, an expensive camera around their neck, and so on. -Residents generally complain to the police, and tourists don’t. That’s a major reason, since if nobody complained, having cash in 8 different currencies and 4 cameras on you isn’t a crime (saw exactly that in a documentary). -As a result, pickpockets in fact operate in tourist areas. Residents don’t spend their time there. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/111 "2014-07-28T02:01:54Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Pretty fucking tired of getting lectured about being civilized by people from countries what assraped the world for close to a thousand years. Countries what didn’t become civilized until they had plunged the world into unimaginably bloody total war twice. Oh, and racked up a can’t-sleep-at-night bodycount as their various colonies peeled off and ate themseles. European moralizing is a deeply, darkly, fucked up joke. You do understand the difference between the present and the past, right? And the difference in relevance? “And you are lynching negroes”. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/112 "2014-07-28T02:35:33Z")
Because the American people don’t make policy decisions based on what the “cool kids” in Europe did first. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/113 "2014-07-28T03:54:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because the American people don’t make policy decisions based on what the “cool kids” in Europe did first. Has this mysterious monolithic entity called “the American people” ever made policy decisions based on a rational evaluation of the evidence-based outcome of _ **any** _ policy that was _ **ever** _ made in _ **any** _ other country, _ **ever** _? Say, for instance, on health care, gun control, capital punishment, or reproductive rights? Or does much of this mysterious monolithic entity mostly sit on their couches flipping between “reality TV” (featuring the Kardashians) and Fox News, and get inundated by messages from special interests everywhere they turn? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/114 "2014-07-28T04:15:00Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Has this mysterious monolithic entity called “the American people” ever made policy decisions based on a rational evaluation of the evidence-based outcome of _ **any** _ policy that was _ **ever** _ made in _ **any** _ other country, _ **ever** _? Say, for instance, on health care, gun control, capital punishment, or reproductive rights? Or does much of this mysterious monolithic entity mostly sit on their couches flipping between “reality TV” (featuring the Kardashians) and Fox News, and get inundated by messages from special interests everywhere they turn? Has any voting public in any country ever? Or do you imagine that the voting public of every single other country is a pure enlightened body of great thinkers that make their decisions based solely on what is wise and just and in the public good, rather than their own emotional biases and upbringings and media trends of the day, and that there is some unique flaw in the American psyche that renders us alone incapable of judging matters rightly? PS: Didn’t “reality TV” originate in Europe? ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/115 "2014-07-28T04:53:58Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > The real reason the US executes and Europe doesn’t is because Europe doesn’t have very good crime policy. You’re far more likely to be assaulted, robbed, or stolen from in Europe. You can’t go to any major city without getting your pocket picked. They don’t execute criminals because overall, they just aren’t that interested in stopping crime. > [@EdwinAmi](#): > > Well, England is more like us and less like the rest of Europe. You are our grandaddy after all! > > You probably didn’t get pickpocketed in those places because you were a tourist and living as a tourist. As a tourist you are sticking to the nice areas, which you have the money to do because you’re only staying there for a week or a few days. Living on a budget all year long is a different story, and you gotta live in high crime areas > > Plus, you were just lucky. Even wth tourists, they get pcikpocketed in Europe a lot. Often gypsies like to target tourists. They always tell American travelers to Europe to watch their wallet In Britain, whilst large cities are not as safe and crime-free as their American counterparts, it depends a lot on the area. For instance, you should avoid Edinburgh’s Cattlemarket when the Highland drovers pour their herds into the centre of town: a wrong word could get you stabbed in the back. In London, although thankfully the garotting craze has died down, and we no longer have to wear spiked collars for social calling, you should avoid the Docks, plenty of villainous Lascars hang around, scowling; Kew Gardens, where wild life lurks amidst the greenery; Chinatown, nr. Limehouse, where the Chinese run gambling dens and the facilities to smoke a pipe for a penny that will induce beautiful luxurious imperial dreams from which you may never awake; and there have been the recent incidents in Whitechapel, although you’re probably safe if not a single businesswomen alone. Hyde Park’s fairly safe though. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/116 "2014-07-28T06:12:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The other thing that is so stupid about this whole debate is the idea that every country has to “progress” towards the same goal at exactly the same rate. It wasn’t that long ago that the UK and France had the death penalty. Were they uncivilized at that time? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/117 "2014-07-28T06:15:37Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Interesting, though, that those countries seem to have scaled back their sodomy, while the US continues to fervently thrust away at the soft parts of the world. Kind of barometric, I guess. Perfect riposte! ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/118 "2014-07-28T06:26:44Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You seem to equate more social services with “good” and less social services with “bad.” Some people have a fundamentally different moral calculus, you don’t get to claim “liberal good” and “conservative bad” and then say anything that is conservative or more conservative than liberal is bad / uncivilized and anything that is liberal or more liberal is more civilized. Some countries and some States make a rational choice to not provide wasteful and stupid social services for everyone. Britain has actually become less socially progressive by your measures in the last few decades. They used to prop up entire failed industries just to give people make work jobs, and they no longer do that. Even things like council housing have been cut back as I understand it. So is Britain more civilized as you assert or less? Because they both reduced social services and abolished the death penalty in the past 30 years. We may have lost council housing but no- one is roofless except by choice. We may have cut back on financial support, but no-one need go without food save for short term circumstances. No-one needs to die because they are denied full preventative health care. No-one is denied necessary medication through cost. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Of course, it’s worth mentioning the British death penalty after the 1940s really only existed in theory (for treason) and wasn’t practiced. The last execution was in 1964. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/119 "2014-07-28T06:43:40Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > From where I sit, it looks less like they renounced assraping the world on moral grounds than it does like they are making the best of being unable to get it up anymore. When I was a kid in the 60s and 70s, the shit they did trying to cling to their possessions in Africa and Asia does not exactly cover them with glory. India and Pakistan were freed in 1948. In the fifties and sixties there was massive movement of freeing previous colonies beginning with Ghana in 1957. The USA decolonised the Philippines in 1946. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2014, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102/120 "2014-07-28T06:46:45Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Yes. What qualities make a country “civilized”? Is the existence of capital punishment the only metric worth measuring? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-u-s-still-have-the-death-penalty/694102.md?page=7)