# Why does the United Negro College fund feel the need to lie so egregiously? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 7, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018 "2009-06-07T16:15:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/201 "2009-06-09T00:48:20Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > Yes, here I are. So the fuck what? I have as much right to read and post in an idiotic, stupid, pointless thread as do you. Of course you do, dear. Have a nice cup of tea now, why don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/202 "2009-06-09T01:05:30Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > Should the government now cause a law to be passed requiring that each and every gizmo, thing, device, or whatever that is routinely sold and used in the USA be labeled with the information that I care nothing about? And this has what relevance to the UNCF ad? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/203 "2009-06-09T01:29:23Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Actually, as I pointed out in the now-defunct **Teemings** issue #15, in “First Flight”, John Stringfellow built a steam engine that he used to power his _unmanned_ airplane in 1848, beating the Wrights, Pearse, and all other comers by a serious margin. Aside from the fact that it didn’t have 3 axis control, if you include Stringfellow’s invention then you have to include every flying toy before it. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/204 "2009-06-09T01:33:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I did not know that. I’d always assumed that the UNCF offered financial aid to _all_ black students. Glad to clarify. AFAIK, UNCF scholarships are for students that attend the schools affiliated with it - historically Black colleges and universities. I know I never met the criteria for any of their scholarships as an undergrad. And I know of (through other’s accounts, not personally) White students who have received UNCF awards. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/205 "2009-06-09T01:45:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Aside from the fact that it didn’t have 3 axis control, if you include Stringfellow’s invention then you have to include every flying toy before it. No, I don’t – I was writing here about the airplane engine. not heavier-than air flight \*. Stringfellow does seem to have built the first reciprocating engine engine for heavier-than-air flight. \*And my article _did_ include earlier heavier-than-air flying toys. There was a helicopter toy prior to Stringfellow’s (1842, by W.H. Philips) that used steam jets, but that’s not in the same class as a complex reciprocating engine. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/206 "2009-06-09T01:53:12Z")
> [@Dorothea\_Book](#): > > And this has what relevance to the UNCF ad? None whatever other than what is plain to see. If the UNCF wants us to be universally aware of the contributions that African-Americans, or Blacks in general, have made to the various devices that effect our lives, then possibly labels identifying such contributions should be attached to whatever device benefited by such contributions. Otherwise, how are we to know? Assuming we care, that is. Maybe I will feel better after I have a nice cup of tea. And my medicine. I need my medicine. ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/207 "2009-06-09T01:54:25Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > Glad to clarify. AFAIK, UNCF scholarships are for students that attend the schools affiliated with it - historically Black colleges and universities. I know I never met the criteria for any of their scholarships as an undergrad. And I know of (through other’s accounts, not personally) White students who have received UNCF awards. Actually, **Hippy Hollow** , they may have changed their policy. According to their website, “UNCF supports minority students at many schools that are not HBCUs. However, UNCF directly supports 39 private HBCUs.” I still think your comments about their precarious position are applicable though. ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/208 "2009-06-09T01:57:01Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > If the UNCF wants us to be universally aware of the contributions that African-Americans, or Blacks in general, have made to the various devices that effect our lives, then possibly labels identifying such contributions should be attached to whatever device benefited by such contributions. Otherwise, how are we to know? Um, presumably by seeing their ad which says nothing about government labeling? > [@](#): > > Maybe I will feel better after I have a nice cup of tea. And my medicine. I need my medicine. Sounds like a plan! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/209 "2009-06-09T02:33:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Um, presumably by seeing their ad which says nothing about government labeling? No, the government labeling is my idea since the ad might not be seen by everyone, leaving many people uninformed. Besides which, I doubt the ad names all of the devices that have been invented or improved by blacks. Maybe we should also tag all the devices invented or improved by women? Or, what the hell, let’s just tag everything with all the information we can find or fabricate. I’ve taken my medicine and the water for the tea is heating. I think I need my blankie though. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/210 "2009-06-09T03:38:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, I always leave out the qualifier. They invented the first 3 axis controlled heavier than air machine. There seems to be an unending trail of brave souls intent on breaking the record for low altitude flight. If they were wealthy like Langly they paid people to fly their contraptions. > > I don’t often get mesmerized by inventors but the Wright Brothers were so far ahead of anybody else in actually understanding what they were doing. The wind tunnels and measuring equipment they invented were state of the art. Pearse’s aircraft also 3-axis control and also had ailerons instead of the wing-warping system the Wrights used. However, he realised how far ahead of him the Wrights were (as you say, with wind tunnels and measuring equipment and so forth), which is why he didn’t go about saying “Hang on, I was flying long before the Wrights and have witnesses to prove it!”. He basically acknowledged that whilst he might have gotten a plane into the air and managed controlled, powered flight first (there is at least one witness to Pearse making a 1km controlled flight with turns in May 1903), the Wrights were the first people to establish a solid foundation for heavier-than-air flight, and were the people who popularised the idea and proved that it had commercial value and practicality. So in that respect, Pearse was the first person to make a controlled, powered, heavier than air flight, but the Wrights were the first people to really understand how it all worked and to have some sort of scientific idea of what they were doing to make it work properly. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/211 "2009-06-09T03:47:40Z")
> [@Dorothea\_Book](#): > > Sorry **Aji** but that reasoning is just silly. Of course patenting, say, a new kind of hairbrush is equivalent to introducing something new, creating a new method or device. > > What I can’t figure out is why those making a case against the legitimacy of exaggeration feel compelled to exaggerate their arguments! So, if I invent a hairbrush with liger hair can I said that “the hairbrush” was an innovation that came from my mind.? Sorry, don’t buy it. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/212 "2009-06-09T04:03:44Z")
> [@Dorothea\_Book](#): > > Gosh, **sailor** , I don’t think I can explain better than I’ve already tried to do (along with some others). The purpose of the ad isn’t to say that blacks invent more or less than any other group. The purpose is simply to emphasize that _blacks have historically invented (as opposed to only doing kinds of work that don’t require intellect)_. Unfortunately, the stereotype of blacks as intellectually inferior, folks who are good at things like manual labor and sports but not at scientific invention, does persist. However, hamfistedly the ad tries to combat this long-lingering stereotype by addressing a history of black invention. > > Right, and here an ad has presented something that is, at bottom, true (blacks have historically invented more things than most people realize) in a problematic way (by needlessly exaggerating the type and extent of invention described). > > Generosity comes in through a willingness to take context into account. Though African-Americans didn’t invent all of these things in the way that the ad implies, the point seems to be that blacks a hundred years ago were inventing things much more than most of us had realized. > > Unfortunately the ad came off all wrong because of some unnecessarily exaggerated language–doubtless intended for effect (rather than out of a malicious desire to lie or malign any other group such as whites). Some think the ad is therefore reprehensible or does a disservice to African-Americans. > > That’s a more complicated question. I set nationality aside as being not really what’s issue here. So to answer the question: why does anyone get anything from believing that a person of their race did something worthwhile? Well, perhaps because it helps them to combat demoralizing feelings about the way their race has been portrayed and, thus, to overcome negative stereotypes. OTOH I don’t think the primary audience for the ad was intended to be blacks. So the question I think you really want to ask is this: what does any white person (or Asian person, or Latina person, etc.) get from learning that African-Americans invented more things in the past than they may have realized. The answer: a more accurate picture of the world in which they live and a greater sense of how some people of a minority race have contributed to that world. > > Maybe you already knew everything there was to know about the history of black inventions in the twentieth century just as maybe you already knew about women’s contribution to literature. But my sense is that these topics are actually quite new to you. > > It’s always nice when we can relax the feeling when we are confronting some new idea that someone is trying to force us into acknowledging a claim on behalf of some other race or sex–as though we were guilty a party in need of reform. It’s nice, in other words, to drop the defensive stance and simply learn something about the world. Admittedly the ad does a poor job of inviting you to do that. > > So in other words the UNCF can’t try to combat a stereotype about race until some explicit racist comes out into the open and challenges them on this very topic? Not only does that put an impossible burden on those trying to combat racial prejudice, it also is unrealistic about the nature of advertising. (Should Pepsi only tell me about the joys of the their product if I explicitly write to them and ask them which is the best cola? Maybe, but I’m not holding my breath for an ad-free world.) > > I agree about the backfire part. It would be interesting to know how effective this ad has been in raising money for UNCF. Thanks for that well thought post. I pretty much agree with everything in it. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/213 "2009-06-09T04:23:04Z")
> [@Gfactor](#): > > Yes, within reason. I’m not taking a living constitution approach to the list of words that shall not be spoken. Here it is: > > [Restricted language in the Pit - The BBQ Pit - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508858) > > I’ll let folks know by moderator note if they’re anywhere close to exceeding the occsional use limit for “expressions . . . normally considered vulgar.” There will be no surprise warnings. So far, nobody is even close. > > **Gfactor** > Pit Moderator How is "cunt’ any different than “prick”? They’re both vulgar put-downs. Why is one allowed, and not the other? Because **Ed** says so? That’s fine, but at least man up and admit it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/214 "2009-06-09T04:26:36Z")
We _totally_ did this already. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/215 "2009-06-09T04:27:08Z")
I see we’re making some wonderful progress here. Keep at it, folks! The fate of the free world rests in your keyboards! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/216 "2009-06-09T04:34:01Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Pearse’s aircraft also 3-axis control and also had ailerons instead of the wing-warping system the Wrights used. However, he realised how far ahead of him the Wrights were (as you say, with wind tunnels and measuring equipment and so forth), which is why he didn’t go about saying “Hang on, I was flying long before the Wrights and have witnesses to prove it!”. > > He basically acknowledged that whilst he might have gotten a plane into the air and managed controlled, powered flight first (there is at least one witness to Pearse making a 1km controlled flight with turns in May 1903), the Wrights were the first people to establish a solid foundation for heavier-than-air flight, and were the people who popularised the idea and proved that it had commercial value and practicality. So in that respect, Pearse was the first person to make a controlled, powered, heavier than air flight, but the Wrights were the first people to really understand how it all worked and to have some sort of scientific idea of what they were doing to make it work properly. Elevator and aileron are the first 2 axis of control. the 3rd axis is rudder control and I don’t see any mention of this with Pearse’s plane. This is what the Wright Brothers discovered with their gliders as necessary to prevent the plane from slipping and allow coordinated turns. Also, the Pearse plane did not have a cambered wing so it was more of a powered hang glider. Still way ahead of it’s time. ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/217 "2009-06-09T14:02:50Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Thanks for that well thought post. I pretty much agree with everything in it. Thanks **sailor**. Nothing like a warm and fuzzy Pit moment in the morning :). ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/218 "2009-06-09T15:04:09Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > How is "cunt’ any different than “prick”? They’re both vulgar put-downs. Why is one allowed, and not the other? Because **Ed** says so? That’s fine, but at least man up and admit it. “Cunt” allows Ed to come riding in on his white horse and save the delicate damsel from having her ears violated by such vulgarity. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/219 "2009-06-09T15:08:58Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > How is "cunt’ any different than “prick”? They’re both vulgar put-downs. Why is one allowed, and not the other? Because **Ed** says so? That’s fine, but at least man up and admit it. Of course they’re different. _Cunt_ is a far more forceful word than _prick_, in fact it’s probably the most forceful term of abuse in the language. All swear words are not created equal. ---
**Author:** ![Dorothea\_Book](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/da6949/32.png) [@Dorothea\_Book](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorothea_Book)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018/220 "2009-06-09T15:12:07Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > All swear words are not created equal. Especially when one has been the subject of a brilliant George Carlin comedy routine… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-united-negro-college-fund-feel-the-need-to-lie-so-egregiously/499018.md?page=12)