# Why does the US have such a low tech and easily forged vaccine card **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [May 27, 2021, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045 "2021-05-27T16:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2021, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/86 "2021-06-01T07:54:32Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Ok. So you are proposing vaccination sites must have available the capacity to provide TWO kinds of documentation, to different standards, and also publicize that they are making that distinction and not accidentally (or accidentally on purpose) getting too much information about people who don’t want to reveal their identity. Is that correct? Why do the vaccination sites have to issue the documentation? Surely a vaccine passport would be handled by a government agency, and to get one, you would just need to get a record of your vaccination to prove you’ve been jabbed. Which, as the sites are keeping records, shouldn’t be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2021, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/87 "2021-06-01T09:59:07Z")
If the individual can give them the record, then how would they know said record wasn’t counterfeit? They’d need some way to verify that it was real, which would mean contacting a verified vaccination site and confirming all the information on said record. What would make sense is if the verified vaccine site just sent the records, regardless of format, to the government agency. It could be set up where you fill out a form giving them the rights and info (the site, your personal details) and giving them the rights to check. They initiate the interaction, so the vaccine site isn’t sending all their records. I very much think the main issue is the lack of political will to do any of this. That makes it harder to overcome the additional hurdles in our system, even thought they could be overcome. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2021, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/88 "2021-06-01T12:11:36Z")
How does this government agency know that it was really SanVito who got the jab? If we are going for a secure document then it has to be secure at all stages, including verifying that it was not some random person who merely gave that name. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2021, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/89 "2021-06-01T12:40:00Z")
Sounds like the US lacks the basic infrastructure to handle this simply. I’m in the UK, I have a unique NHS number, the NHS are in control of all vaccinations, my vaccination record is on the NHS database. Issuing vaccine passports really won’t be that big a deal. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2021, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/90 "2021-06-01T15:58:41Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Sounds like the US lacks the basic infrastructure to handle this simply. I’m in the UK, I have a unique NHS number, I think this is the best answer yet. Until the USA institutes some sort of internal passport or identity card system, or (closer to SanVito’s case) a national health care system, there’s no way to do this with an adequate degree of security. (We do have Social Security numbers, even for kids, but there are lots of restrictions on using it.) ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2021, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/91 "2021-06-01T17:35:31Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Sounds like the US lacks the basic infrastructure to handle this simply. I’m in the UK, I have a unique NHS number, the NHS are in control of all vaccinations, my vaccination record is on the NHS database. Issuing vaccine passports really won’t be that big a deal. I can speak to Ontario, Canada. I had my first does of AstraZeneca at a pharmacy. Vaccine administration here is done by many different organizations - city run clinics, hospitals, community pop-ups, family doctors, and pharmacists. All of them ask for your Provincial Health Card, but it is **not** required to get the vaccination. All vaccination sites have access to a provincial system to record the date, vaccine, lot #, etc. that is associated with my Health Card number. I have no idea what they do if you do not have a health card - visitor, undocumented, etc. I received an email confirmation about 5 minutes after the vaccine. The receipt shows my full name, DOB, and last 4 characters of my Health Card: ## Ministry of Health Ministère de la Santé Name/Nom: FINS TO THE LEFT Health Card Number/Numéro de la carte Santé: ######2832 Date of Birth/Date de naissance: 19XX-MM-DD Date/Date: 2021-04-20, 3:23 p.m. Agent/Agent: COVID-19 Non-rep VV Product Name/Nom du produit: ASTRAZENECA COVID-19 Non-rep VV Diluent Product: Not Applicable / Ne s’applique pas Lot/Lot: XXXXX Dosage/Dosage: 0.5ml Route/Voie: Intramuscular / intramusculaire Site/Site: Right deltoid / deltoïde droit You have received 1 valid dose(s) / Vous avez reçu 1 dose(s) valide(s) Vaccine Administered By/Vaccin Administré par: Kevin S, Pharmacist Authorized Organization/Organisme agréé: MCK-Costco Pharmacy (Colossus Dr.) Your next dose is scheduled for/Votre prochaine dose est prévue pour \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Note: Only valid doses are counted / Remarque: Seules les doses valides sont comptées Please remain on the premises for the next 15 minutes for observation. You are free to leave the vaccination clinic at: 3:38 PM / Veuillez rester sur place pendant les 15 prochaines minutes aux fins d’observation. Vous pouvez quitter la séance de vaccination à:3:38 PM. Interestingly, the PDF is not secured in any way. No digital signature and the file is not locked from editing. The Ministry of Health has my picture on file, so presumably they could issue an app which scans my face and verifies that the person in front of you matches the health card and presents my vaccination status. So far, they have not done this. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2021, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/92 "2021-06-01T19:58:39Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > I have a unique NHS number, the NHS are in control of all vaccinations, my vaccination record is on the NHS database. In the US, we DON’T have this kind of infrastructure. There is no real equivalent to “my vaccination record … on the NHS database”; my insurance company, my doctor, and my state health dept all have a record that somebody using my name got the jab, but those three systems don’t talk to each other directly, and information interchange is a precarious business. (For example, the doctor’s electronic medical records system can’t display my COVID vaccine information in the fields for COVID vaccine, because I didn’t get it there; the records import stashed it somewhere else in the record.) Meanwhile, they did check my ID for one of the two shots, but I don’t remember that they did for the other, so theoretically pseudo-slash2k could have gotten one of them. Most people in America have Social Security numbers, which are unique, but which are NOT good identifiers because of rampant fraud and abuse; [medical identity theft](https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/what-know-about-medical-identity-theft) is a serious problem here. Whatever verification system the vaccine administrator chooses would need to be able to accommodate people who want the vaccine but don’t want their identity revealed, or who are using a fake identity or somebody else’s identity anyway, AND the anti-vaxxer who wants the record but doesn’t want the jab (but who might be willing to pay Homeless Dude or Undocumented Alien to get the shot using Anti-Vaxxer’s ID). That’s not a simple problem to solve. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2021, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/93 "2021-06-01T21:04:56Z")
Indeed, and that’s why I think it will not be solved. For better or worse, organizations will simply have to take people’s word that they’ve been vaccinated. California has announced they will accept the card as proof where needed. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/94 "2021-06-02T14:01:54Z")
Why come up with something better when nobody asks you for it? I’m fully vaccinated. I have the card in my wallet. But if some rando asked to see my card (this probably will never happen), I’d ask him to see his Covid Police badge first. Before I get any hate, I still wear a mask in businesses that don’t have a sign saying you don’t have to wear one if you’re fully vaccinated. Those are becoming increasingly rare though. I do not view the card as “proof”. That’s almost laughable. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/95 "2021-06-02T16:38:32Z")
The whole thing is a giant chicken and egg problem. Since our society would not put up with businesses (or even local government) empowered to be the COVID Police at their own front doors, there’s no need for a fraud-proof ID. So there was no incentive to collect the data to enable building a fraud-proof system in the first place. It’s epic fail every step of the way from end to end. To fix that would require starting over with epic careful planning, epic successful implementation, and epic compliance at every step of the way. In other words: 'Merika! Fuck Yeah! Too stupid to have nice things. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2021, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/96 "2021-06-02T22:59:18Z")
I’m going to a concert on Friday at a very small theater. They require proof of vaccination or a recent (72 hr) negative test. A picture of your vax card on your phone counts as proof. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/97 "2021-06-03T17:10:11Z")
Here too, a theater just announced live in person shows, for vaccinated people. The card is what they’ll use. So even if it is easily forged, that’s what we’re using. I guess they figure the number of people who would forge a card just to see Shakespeare is pretty minimal. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/98 "2021-06-03T17:35:07Z")
The document is made to be easily forged because a large faction of Americans want it to be so easily forged as to be worthless. The obstacle isn’t technological and never has been. It’s a type of ignorant paranoia that’s hard to understand if you aren’t from the US (or even if you are from the US, but not well-aquainted with rural and especially southern areas.). Let me explain. In US politics there has always been a thread of opposition (more of a heavy cargo rope, really) against any and all forms of federal government identification. This is due to the ideological synergy between: 1. evangelical Christians, who are suspicious of such documents being the “mark of the beast”, and 2. white supremacist militias who for obvious reasons are hostile to anything making them more easily identifiable, and 3. paranoid personality types who believe the government is watching them, and 4. general-purpose cranks who delight in being ungovernable Millions of people don’t want to get vaccinated against COVID, they don’t want anyone to hold them accountable for their foolish choices, and they have the numbers to make this a political reality. That’s why our vax documents are garbage. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/99 "2021-06-03T17:38:58Z")
My major concern is international travel. I assume foreign countries will want some kind of real proof of vaccination. As far as I can see, there is zero chance of that happening in the US. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/100 "2021-06-03T18:38:55Z")
Similar easily forged vaccination records have been accepted for international travel for a long time now. There may be more people with a greater incentive to forge them now, but they will be presumably risking imprisonment in a foreign jail and/or deportation if the forgery is detected. Perhaps what’s needed most is for some things to require authorization to verify the information, so that spot checks can be done. That way, a more secure card would not be needed, but there would be a risk of detection for supplying false information, and penalties for doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2021, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/101 "2021-06-03T18:57:25Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > My major concern is international travel. I assume foreign countries will want some kind of real proof of vaccination. As far as I can see, there is zero chance of that happening in the US. Googling, I think the most common requirement is a negative PCR test within three days of entering the country. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/102 "2021-06-04T04:44:45Z")
A fancy high-tech vaccine passport sounds like a long-term solution for a short-term problem. Requiring proof of vaccination is for the temporary transitional period where it’s assumed that some people who want the vaccine haven’t received it yet, especially in countries that haven’t gotten a big supply yet. We’re not going to be waving these things around for years. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/103 "2021-06-04T12:19:39Z")
> [@eschrodinger](#): > > Similar easily forged vaccination records have been accepted for international travel for a long time now. There may be more people with a greater incentive to forge them now, but they will be presumably risking imprisonment in a foreign jail and/or deportation if the forgery is detected. This is an important item to take note of. Until like, _now_, it was widely acceptable, and not just in the USA, to just have “a note from your doctor” that you had your travel (or school-admission) immunizations, and the provision was that if you were found to have faked it, _ **then** _ you would be penalized. This is not something that you pivot on in a few months especially in such a balkanized system as ours. And WRT @HMS_Irruncible 's list, that is not just a contemporary thing – and although that list includes a lot of the opposition, there is also the more objective fact that for most of US history, the issuing of public health certifications and general public health directives, and of ID documents in general, has been specifically a state-level purview, not a federal one. It comes under “general police power” and has been reserved to the several states from day one. The federal level gets involved only in the realms that are under its direct jurisdictions e.g. it can ask that the ID you use to get on an airline flight comply with a specific set of parameters. (But as we’ve seen, it can’t force you to get one or your state to give you one, if you don’t want it, because it just is not among its powers to do that, and it is the federals who blink when the states don’t play along.) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/104 "2021-06-04T12:28:49Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Requiring proof of vaccination is for the temporary transitional period where it’s assumed that some people who want the vaccine haven’t received it yet, Why do you think that? Requiring proff of vaccination is so that unvaccinated people who must be resumed to be disease carriers can be excluded from whatever. Whether that’s a hospital, a movie theater, or entering Country X. Or if not prevented from entering, at least presented with the enforceable requirement to mask up, distance, etc. The whole thing that makes COVID dangerous from a public health perspective is the large number of asymptomatic / low symptom infections that mean people are up and going about their lives oblivious to the fact they’re actively spreading an infection fatal to many others. With e.g. one of the bad flus, you can pretty well bet 99+% of the contagious are already in bed voluntarily and unwilling to get out. Ref the COVID-sniffing dogs, _if_ we could get to the point where we have inexpensive devices that look about like the now-ubiquitous IR forehead & wrist thermometers, but which could be pointed into the open mouth of somebody asked to mouth breath and it would light up **COVID!!!1!!** if they’re actively infected then we could dispense with all the masks, paperwork, distancing etc. Just turn those people back at the door wherever they’re found. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2021, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045/105 "2021-06-04T12:49:03Z")
I had to provide immunization records to my private university in order to live in the dorms. I don’t believe that’s at all unusual. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-us-have-such-a-low-tech-and-easily-forged-vaccine-card/943045.md?page=6)