# Why Does the West Bank Need to be Ethnically Cleansed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421 "2009-02-04T15:48:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/1 "2009-02-04T15:48:02Z")
My impression is that some of the peace proposals involving Israel entail removing some or all of the Jewish settlements on the West Bank. Isn’t this ethnic cleansing? And haven’t we been told that ethnic cleansing is bad? If there are Jewish settlers who wish to stay in the area regardless of which government is in control, shouldn’t their wishes be respected? And shouldn’t they be allowed to take part in said government? ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/2 "2009-02-04T16:04:25Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > My impression is that some of the peace proposals involving Israel entail removing some or all of the Jewish settlements on the West Bank. Isn’t this ethnic cleansing? And haven’t we been told that ethnic cleansing is bad? > > If there are Jewish settlers who wish to stay in the area regardless of which government is in control, shouldn’t their wishes be respected? And shouldn’t they be allowed to take part in said government? The reason this is an issue is that these settlements where made under armed guard and against the will of the people who lived there. These aren’t Israelis moving into existing towns. These are settlements that were intended, and were treated as extensions of Israel. Imagine if the U.S. had established settlements or U.S. citizens living under U.S. law in Iraq. That is basically what happened here. The settlers involved were seeking to extend Israel, they don’t want to live under any Palestinian government. Jonathan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/3 "2009-02-04T16:26:20Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > My impression is that some of the peace proposals involving Israel entail removing some or all of the Jewish settlements on the West Bank. Isn’t this ethnic cleansing? Not really - the objections of the Palestinians is not that they are Jewish, but that they are Israeli. Citizens of a different country, IOW, more or less. I suppose the settlers could petition to join a new country of Palestine and participate in that government, once it is set up, but I doubt the settlers would want that. I suspect that, if Hamas or the equivalent was running the government of the new country, they would kill the Jews in the settlements and dole out the land to non-Jewish Palestinians even if the Jews were citizens. That _would_ be ethnic cleansing. It would also be in keeping with the Hamas charter. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/4 "2009-02-04T16:34:52Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > The reason this is an issue is that these settlements where made under armed guard and against the will of the people who lived there. So it’s preferable to remove people from an area if they orginally came there with armed guards and were unwanted – generally speaking – by the incumbents? > [@](#): > > The settlers involved were seeking to extend Israel, they don’t want to live under any Palestinian government. Supposing that some of them prefer to stay, regardless of what government is in power, shouldn’t their wishes be respected? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/5 "2009-02-04T16:38:31Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > My impression is that some of the peace proposals involving Israel entail removing some or all of the Jewish settlements on the West Bank. Isn’t this ethnic cleansing? And haven’t we been told that ethnic cleansing is bad? > > If there are Jewish settlers who wish to stay in the area regardless of which government is in control, shouldn’t their wishes be respected? And shouldn’t they be allowed to take part in said government? Some of these settlements are being/were built on privately owned Palestinian land. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/6 "2009-02-04T16:59:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Not really - the objections of the Palestinians is not that they are Jewish, but that they are Israeli. Citizens of a different country, IOW, more or less. > > I suppose the settlers could petition to join a new country of Palestine and participate in that government, once it is set up, but I doubt the settlers would want that. I suspect that, if Hamas or the equivalent was running the government of the new country, they would kill the Jews in the settlements and dole out the land to non-Jewish Palestinians even if the Jews were citizens. That _would_ be ethnic cleansing. It would also be in keeping with the Hamas charter. > > Regards, > Shodan Its Fatah who are the Palestinians running the West Bank,Hamas run Gaza and Hezzboulah supposedly fighting for the Palestinian cause in Lebanon(As long as it achieves Iranian objectives) Fatah are enthusiastically purging anyone even suspected of having sympathy with Hamas,and Hamas have already done this to Fatah in Gaza. IME on the W Bank not a single Palestinian expressed any remorse or any condemnation of terrorist attacks on Jewish civilians ANY WHERE IN THE WORLD at any time, now or in the past. So I wouldn’t give two pence for the chances of any Jew surviving more then five minutes under Palestinian rule. Not only that but they seemed to have an inbuilt hatred of the West and Western culture. That is not to say that there aren’t Palestinians who are angered and outraged by Palestinian terrorist atrocities just that I never encountered any . Or heard of any. Or have even seen any in the media. Ever… ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/7 "2009-02-04T17:40:06Z")
**Lust** , you need to read more. From other [Arab leaders](http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1061472.html) > [@](#): > > Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak voiced harsh criticism against Hamas on Wednesday, accusing the Islamist Palestinian movement of being responsible for the shedding of Arab blood to [Abbas](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/706785.html) who for his part has withstood some heat for condemning terrorism against Israel for a few years now (yes, we know he had done his share too before, but he has seen that another path is more likely to give better results). And various man in the street interviews in various outlets (always making sure no one else is listening). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/8 "2009-02-04T17:41:21Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > So I wouldn’t give two pence for the chances of any Jew surviving more then five minutes under Palestinian rule. I dunno, the Jews are so heavily armed and the various Palestinian governments so inefficient and corrupt that the Jews might hang on for quite some time. Personally, I think the more intrusive settlements should be dismantled (or officially abandoned by Israel if the residents resist) and whole thing should be annexed by Jordan. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/9 "2009-02-04T17:45:17Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > So I wouldn’t give two pence for the chances of any Jew surviving more then five minutes under Palestinian rule. I disagree . . . if the IDF pulled out of the West Bank and there was an all out war between the Jewish settlers and the Palestinians, I think there’s a pretty good chance the Palestinians would be in serious trouble. But that’s neither here nor there. The question is why anyone thinks it’s better that the area have fewer Jews. And by extension, does that reason apply to other areas of the world which have ethnic and/or religious minorities living in them? ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/10 "2009-02-04T17:57:59Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > The question is why anyone thinks it’s better that the area have fewer Jews. Well, there’s undeniable and virulent Jew-hating infecting the Palestinian resistance, but even so, that’s like if you come to my house with a gun, order my family out and start moving yours in, then when I complain you ask why I think it’s better the house have fewer message board posters in it to imply that my real problem is bias. I think the question is how come you’re in my house. Now, the answer to that, some say, is that it’s actually your house in the first place, but it’s still a different question. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/11 "2009-02-04T18:09:43Z")
> [@Ensign\_Edison](#): > > Well, there’s undeniable and virulent Jew-hating infecting the Palestinian resistance, but even so, that’s like if you come to my house with a gun, order my family out and start moving yours in, then when I complain you ask why I think it’s better the house have fewer message board posters in it to imply that my real problem is bias. I think the question is how come you’re in my house. It seems to me that any group which engages in ethnic cleansing can make that argument and draw that analogy, i.e. that they are removing Group X from areas which really belong to Group Y. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/12 "2009-02-04T18:16:16Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > It seems to me that any group which engages in ethnic cleansing can make that argument and draw that analogy, i.e. that they are removing Group X from areas which really belong to Group Y. I suppose, but in this case, it’s literally true. “Settlers” aren’t just moving into unoccupied land. Some are actually taking people’s homes under force. It’s not a matter of oh, generally people don’t like these newcomers with guns. It’s a matter of hey, I live here, my children live here, all our stuff is here, and armed thugs are now kicking us out. This is not a metaphor. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/13 "2009-02-04T18:18:30Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > It seems to me that any group which engages in ethnic cleansing can make that argument and draw that analogy, i.e. that they are removing Group X from areas which really belong to Group Y. That argument might have weight if the settlements were more than 50 years old, or in some case more than 5. By your argument, if the Swiss were to invade Liberia this year and set up Swiss colonies in some of the best farmland, it would be ethnic cleaning to try and move them out next year. It is hard to parse these things when you worry about whose ancestors stole what, but it should be pretty simple when the majority of the actors are still alive. It may be wrong for me to take your house for something your great grandparents did, but not so much if you are the one who did it. Jonathan ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/14 "2009-02-04T18:21:25Z")
> [@Ensign\_Edison](#): > > I suppose, but in this case, it’s literally true. “Settlers” aren’t just moving into unoccupied land. Some are actually taking people’s homes under force. It’s not a matter of oh, generally people don’t like these newcomers with guns. It’s a matter of hey, I live here, my children live here, all our stuff is here, and armed thugs are now kicking us out. This is not a metaphor. Do you have a cite that a significant percentage of Jewish settlers have taken peoples’ literal homes by force? And even if it’s true, isn’t the natural solution to simply evict the specific settlers who took somebody’s house, rather than argue for a mass cleansing? ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/15 "2009-02-04T18:27:34Z")
I think any percentage is significant, and frankly I’m surprised you’re unaware this is happening, since [even Israelis have acknowledged the problem](http://thinkprogress.org/2009/01/31/livni-west-bank-settlers/): > [@](#): > > Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, who is in the running to become the country’s next prime minister, told Simon — bluntly — that in order to achieve peace and advance a Palestinian state, the Israeli government would force the settlers to leave the West Bank: > > ``` > SIMON: Can you really imagine evacuating the tens of thousands of settlers who say they will not leave? > > LIVNI: It’s not going to be easy, but this is the only solution. > > SIMON: But you know that there are settlers who say, “We will fight. We will not leave. We will fight.” > > LIVNI: So this is the responsibility of the government, of the police to stop them, as simple as that. Israel is a state of law and order. > > ``` Of course, soon after the story changed, and this bluntness was replaced by more diplomatic language. But most everybody understands there are some settlers acting way out of line and creating problems for Israel as well as the Palestinians. As for whether this makes a full expulsion justified, I don’t know. I think that’s symptomatic of the toxic Jew-hating I acknowledged previously, but I also think the question is clearly more complicated than ‘we don’t want Jews for neighbors’. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/16 "2009-02-04T18:43:43Z")
**Ensign** , your cite does not support your claim. At all. I am unaware of _any_ homes being taken by force. _Land_ being illegally built upon yes. Livni is just not considering the option that Jews could or would stay there as citizens of a new Palestinian state with rights and protections and subject to local rule of law. Is she right not to? ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/17 "2009-02-04T18:52:36Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Do you have a cite that a significant percentage of Jewish settlers have taken peoples’ literal homes by force? And even if it’s true, isn’t the natural solution to simply evict the specific settlers who took somebody’s house, rather than argue for a mass cleansing? Does it matter if they move into homes vacated due to war, or just build their homes on empty land that used to belong to others. The thing is, they don’t want to move to the West Bank and become citizens of Palestine. Their goal is to extend Isreal. If I, and a few thousand of my friends, went down to Mexico and just built a town on the best empty land I could find and declared that the town is now part of the U.S., how would the Mexican authorities react? We are not talking about people who moved to a new country, their stated goal is to extend their old country. Jonathan ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/18 "2009-02-04T19:02:16Z")
> [@](#): > > [Israeli troops force settlers from Hebron homes (Roundup)](http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/middleeast/news/article_1339904.php/Israeli_troops_force_settlers_from_Hebron_homes__Roundup_) > Middle East News > > Aug 7, 2007, 13:15 GMT > > Tel Aviv - Hundreds of Israeli security forces early Tuesday forcibly evacuated Jewish squatters from Palestinian-owned buildings they had occupied in the biblical city of Hebron, police said. From [United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs](http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/4a59b1c6672db080852572f2006c74a4/665317f0f18d199b852575230075076d!OpenDocument) > [@](#): > > In spite of clearly defined legal responsibilities and some recent efforts undertaken by the IDF and Israeli police, the relevant Israeli authorities have failed to adequately enforce the rule of law when it comes to Israeli settlers carrying out acts of violence against Palestinians and their property in the West Bank. > [@](#): > > The majority of settler incidents recorded by OCHA since 2006 have been undertaken by groups of Israeli settlers against Palestinian civilians as they performed their daily tasks – walking to school or the market, grazing their livestock, tending their fields or harvesting their crops. Children as young as eight-years-old and the elderly as old as 95 years have been the targets of attack… These violent acts against people and property have one aim: to force Palestinians out of their homes and off their land so the “settlers” can steal it. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/19 "2009-02-04T19:09:23Z")
> [@Ensign\_Edison](#): > > I think any percentage is significant, and frankly I’m surprised you’re unaware this is happening, since [even Israelis have acknowledged the problem](http://thinkprogress.org/2009/01/31/livni-west-bank-settlers/): I don’t see where in your cite it says that Jewish settlers have taken peoples’ literal homes by force. Could you quote the relevant portion to me? You say that any percentage is significant, but I would disagree. For example, suppose that there is some ethnic minority of 300,000 X’s people living in Country Y, and it can be documented that one occasion, 3 radical X’s took the literal home by force of a non-X. Does it follow that it’s preferable to ethnically cleanse Country Y of X’s? I don’t think so. Or did I misunderstand your argument somehow? ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421/20 "2009-02-04T19:10:21Z")
Well yes, since I explicitly said I don’t necessarily think it follows that every Jew should therefore be expelled. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-bank-need-to-be-ethnically-cleansed/484421.md?page=2)