# Why does the West have such a hardon for democracy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601 "2011-01-22T21:30:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Taenia\_spp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@Taenia\_spp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taenia_spp)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/1 "2011-01-22T21:30:09Z")
In full disclosure, I live in America, and have been pretty content with our system of government, despite all its idiosyncrasies. What I’ve been wondering for a while is why do our Western societies (America in particular, but also much of Europe) hold democracy as this perfect ideal as a form of governance? Churchill made a tongue-in-cheek statement to the effect of democracy being the worst form of government except all others that have been tried. This to me, summarizes this Western fetishization of democracy, where all other systems of government are deemed unfit for the populace at large. This, I think, ignores the fact that there are a great many other systems of government that are more appropriate for a particular culture or society. This obsession with democracy has driven some real world actions and fears, most recently the American policy of spreading democracy in the Middle East, and the fears of the erosion of Hungarian democracy. So, what gives? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/2 "2011-01-22T21:40:00Z")
> [@Taenia\_spp](#): > > This obsession with democracy has driven some real world actions and fears, most recently the American policy of spreading democracy in the Middle East, and the fears of the erosion of Hungarian democracy. So, what gives? Well, for starters, the U.S. has no such policy of spreading democracy in the Middle East. They seem to have no problem being great friends with dictatorships in the Middle East as long as teh dictators are useful. For another, the democracy thing is simply utilitarian to us. Democratic nations tend to be friendlier to each other than dictatorships are; they’re more open to trade, less corrupt, less likely to start wars, and it’s bad PR to deal with countries that oppress their people. People like democracy; it makes them feel freer, and for the most part it’s a justified feeling. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/3 "2011-01-22T21:44:11Z")
> [@Taenia\_spp](#): > > This, I think, ignores the fact that there are a great many other systems of government that are more appropriate for a particular culture or society. Can you name a real-world society and the system of government which is _factually_ more appropriate to it than democracy, and explain why? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/4 "2011-01-22T21:46:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Why does the West have such a hardon for democracy? I would say the basic answer is: Because it works. It works ‘better’ on a number of different levels than any other system yet devised. You have to understand that ‘democracy’ is not an absolute but a sliding scale system that can be tuned or modified to fit different countries and cultures in different ways. US ‘democracy’ isn’t the same as, say, ‘democracy’ in Europe (which varies wildly as well)…or the same as ‘democracy’ in Asia (say, Japan or South Korea, which some people don’t think have ‘democracy’ at all). -XT ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/5 "2011-01-22T22:04:08Z")
Democracies provide more freedoms for all of it’s citizens than non-democracies do. Democracies perform better economically than non-democracies. Democracies have better social support systems for it’s worst off than non-democracies. There are exceptions of course, but why wouldn’t the west have a hardon for a system that usually provides a better standard of living with more freedoms and less human rights violations? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/6 "2011-01-22T22:05:43Z")
I think people should have whatever form of government they choose to have. I just ask that they have the option of freely confirming that choice on a regular basis. It’s only fair. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/7 "2011-01-22T22:32:01Z")
An enlightened, benevolent dictatorship would do what is good for the people and try to fulfill their desires - much as a perfect democracy would, without the hassle of elections. Enlightened benevolent dictators are in extremely short supply, but democracy can actually be made to function fairly reliably. In other words, democracy tends to work better because it can be made closer to an ideal government without requiring superior beings to run it, because it relies on feedback from the people and collective self interest instead of enlightened benevolence from someone who has little reason to be either enlightened or benevolent. > [@spark240](#): > > Can you name a real-world society and the system of government which is _factually_ more appropriate to it than democracy, and explain why? I suppose it depends on how you define “more appropriate”. Some societies like Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia are so full of people who don’t like each other that it takes the brute force of a dictatorship to hold them together; so for holding them together a dictatorship is superior. However, if you don’t care about holding them together then a breakup is more pleasant for most of the people involved; the Czechs and Slovaks have certainly had a nicer time of it than the former Yugoslavians. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/8 "2011-01-22T23:52:33Z")
As the above post says, I guess the ideal would be an infinitely wise, infinitely benevolent, infinitely fair dictator. That doesn’t exist in the real world, though. Democracy presents the best average - it has its issues (decision by committee), but on average a large group of people selected by the public will represent their interests better than the lottery of having just one person make all the decisions. Sure, it’s\* theoretically \*possible. But it’s not likely. ---
**Author:** ![Taenia\_spp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@Taenia\_spp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taenia_spp)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/9 "2011-01-22T23:53:21Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Can you name a real-world society and the system of government which is _factually_ more appropriate to it than democracy, and explain why? I’m not proposing that any particular form of government is the unqualified best form of government for any particular group of people. For instance, a hierarchical tribalistic sort of government works very well for various small bands of people all around the globe, and I don’t think anyone would confuse this sort of government with a true democracy. In conversations with people who lived through Soviet Communism, some weren’t sad to see it go, but others (despite the poverty) were nolstalgic for the social support networks in place that ensured nearly everyone had an education and job. European monarchies certainly functioned well before the advent of liberal notions of self-governance, despite a large number of the populace living in poverty conditions. My point in all this is not to necessarily argue the merits of democracy versus other forms of government (because I obviously live and enjoy the former), but to ask why western society has placed democracy on this pillar of greatness, accompanying the sometimes jingoistic rhetoric that comes out of certain politicians. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/10 "2011-01-23T00:18:25Z")
Hmmmm, I would throw out Singapore as a dictatorship that’s done pretty well by most of it’s people. Hong Kong might be another example. For the mega populations, you can compare and contrast India with China. One being the world’s largest democracy and one being whatever it is that China is (formerly a command and control old style dictatorship and now a wierd hybrid of unfettered capitalism on top of legacy authoratarianism). ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/11 "2011-01-23T00:23:08Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Well, for starters, the U.S. has no such policy of spreading democracy in the Middle East. Are we forgetting Karen Hughes, and the Democracy Initiative? > [@](#): > > [Karen Hughes’ Mission ‘Rude,’ ‘Insensitive,’ ‘Tactless’](Karen Hughes’ Mission ‘Rude,’ ‘Insensitive,’ ‘Tactless’) > > The recent mission of the U.S. Undersecretary of State Karen Hughes to the Middle East was an insult to Muslims and shows the bankruptcy of America’s view of itself. According to this article from The Star magazine of Jordan, ‘If America wants the world to change, it has to change itself.’ [Innocent Abroad: Karen Hughes’s mission impossible](http://www.amconmag.com/article/2005/dec/19/00013/) [Bush Cuts Funding For Democracy Initiative, One Week After Touting Program In SOTU Speech](http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/05/millennium-challenge-bush/) Just because it was a failure, doesn’t mean it wasn’t a policy. ---
**Author:** ![HoboStew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f17d59/32.png) [@HoboStew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoboStew)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/12 "2011-01-23T00:32:40Z")
[QUOTE=P.J. O’Rourke] [Democracy] not only provides a bit of life, a pinch of liberty and the occasional pursuance of happiness, it’s also the only thing that’s ever _tried_ to. Our civilization is the first in history to show even the slightest concern for average, undistinguished, none-too-commendable people like us. [/QUOTE] He was talking about western civilization, not democracy per se, but I think it still applies. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/13 "2011-01-23T06:21:56Z")
> [@Taenia\_spp](#): > > What I’ve been wondering for a while is why do our Western societies (America in particular, but also much of Europe) hold democracy as this perfect ideal as a form of governance? Seems to me that the answer to your query is already to be found in the question; Western countries tend to trumpet representative “democracy” because they just so happen to be currently practicing it. It’s blatant self-congratulatory nonsense, pure and simple. What I find more interesting is said Western nations’ success rate with indoctrinating their own populaces as to the alleged benefits of representative democracy. Most Westerners blindly (fanatically, one might say) accept this political faith with neither rhyme nor reason. These people tend to treat their political system almost as a faith, fully embracing it even in the complete absence of supporting data. In this regard, representative democracy may perhaps be viewed as one of the greatest propaganda successes in human history. Luckily, much of the world rejects representative democracy, and this is not likely to change any time soon. There is yet hope for mankind… ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/14 "2011-01-23T07:31:12Z")
I’ll side with Churchill and decline to posit a superior system, however … > [@godix](#): > > Democracies perform better economically than non-democracies. China is doing very well, along with Hongkong and Singapore which some consider non-democracies. And did not South Korea experience high economic growth under military rule? > [@godix](#): > > Democracies have better social support systems for it’s worst off than non-democracies. I think Cuba and some of the Soviet bloc countries would be counter-examples. (Of course this is offset in those examples by overall poverty.) ---
**Author:** ![Naxos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/50afbb/32.png) [@Naxos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Naxos)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/15 "2011-01-23T09:06:02Z")
> [@Taenia\_spp](#): > > … This, I think, ignores the fact that there are a great many other systems of government that are more appropriate for a particular culture or society. … Despite the blatant condescending implication that it would be appropriate in one of those “great many” systems to stratify society and abuse and exploit most classes for the benefit of the privileged, a belief that is also at the core of libertarianism and fascism, a political system is a result, not a cause of societal organization. Democracy is the result of people acknowledging the right of minorities to take an equal part in society and not be at the mercy of other groups. Your comment regarding the US “spreading” democracy in the Middle East is related more to parroting meaningless political propaganda rather than any examination about the benefits of democracy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/16 "2011-01-23T12:52:05Z")
It’s democracy’s fault. She always dresses like such a slut. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/17 "2011-01-23T14:23:06Z")
> [@Taenia\_spp](#): > > …why do our Western societies (America in particular, but also much of Europe) hold democracy as this perfect ideal as a form of governance? Can’t say I’ve ever heard this “perfect ideal” notion espoused before now. Most of the people I talk to about it these days seem to have a marked distrust and distaste for the U.S. government. > [@Taenia\_spp](#): > > …the fact that there are a great many other systems of government that are more appropriate for a particular culture or society. That would be a rather ambiguous assertion, to say the least. > [@Taenia\_spp](#): > > …the American policy of spreading democracy in the Middle East… And last but not least, a very dubious characterization of recent history. American policy is closely tied with international security concerns as well as our own in this example. What gets “spread” in the form of government replacing dysfunctional regimes is a default consequence more than any intention to seed the world with democracy. Installing those benevolent dictators in such short supply would certainly be an easier, cheaper, quicker option. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/18 "2011-01-23T14:56:16Z")
> [@Naxos](#): > > Despite the blatant condescending implication that it would be appropriate in one of those “great many” systems to stratify society and abuse and exploit most classes for the benefit of the privileged, a belief that is also at the core of libertarianism and fascism, a political system is a result, not a cause of societal organization. It’s “condescending” to imply that the world is complex enough that different political models may work best for different people at different times? And it’s not “condescending” to insist that all humans are obliged to emulate you in blindly embracing representative democracy? Fascinating. > [@](#): > > Democracy is the result of people acknowledging the right of minorities to take an equal part in society and not be at the mercy of other groups. Oh, really now? I guess that explains why the wonderful representative democracies of South Africa and the United States fell all over themselves to be among the first nations in the world to pursue radical racial desegregation. :rolleyes: Also, how does institutionalized mob rule give minorities “an equal part in society?” By definition, a political system that trivializes the voice of the minorities will have little incentive to consider minority interests. Hence, for example, the resistance to gay civil rights in most of your beloved Western world. Indeed, your response serves as a perfect example of my earlier comment. You are blinded by your adoration of representative democracy, and you ignore facts in your fanatical devotion to this system. It is a matter of faith rather than reason for you, as it is for far too many otherwise intelligent individuals. That saddens me… ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/19 "2011-01-23T15:14:14Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > You are blinded by your adoration of … and you ignore facts in your fanatical devotion to this system. It is a matter of faith rather than reason for you, as it is for far too many otherwise intelligent individuals. That saddens me… Pot, Kettle, etc. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/20 "2011-01-23T15:14:20Z")
Saying a culture can’t handle democracy speaks more of the dysfunction of the people in that culture than of democracy. There’s a lot of truth in the saying “democracy gives you the government you deserve”. An enlightened benevolent culture produces a superior government under democracy just as an enlightened benevolent dictator would. Either of these are exceedingly rare. The difference is under democracy enlightened self interest can work as a substitute, which is where most of the world’s democratic countries fall. Where as an enlightened dictator is pretty rare, and self interest usually seems to make them oppress their people. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601.md?page=2)