# Why does the West have such a hardon for democracy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601 "2011-01-22T21:30:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/21 "2011-01-23T17:26:27Z")
> [@Taenia\_spp](#): > > For instance, a hierarchical tribalistic sort of government works very well for various small bands of people all around the globe, and I don’t think anyone would confuse this sort of government with a true democracy. I don’t think most of us would confuse it with a government, period. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/22 "2011-01-23T17:32:46Z")
The people who are currently running a given democracy could also favor democracies in general because it reinforces their own present power. Some of them have pointed out that democracy confers legitimacy onto the government by virtue of the statistical consent of the people to be governed by that particular government; this is a weaker argument than it sounds like, because we should be talking about informed consent, and so in that sense politicians that have lied cannot be said to share in this legitimacy, leaving the legitimate portion of the government pretty small. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/23 "2011-01-23T18:45:39Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > As the above post says, I guess the ideal would be an infinitely wise, infinitely benevolent, infinitely fair dictator. > > That doesn’t exist in the real world, though. Hey, I’m ready whenever the country needs me! 🙂 I don’t see how you can justify not giving people a choice in what government they have. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/24 "2011-01-23T18:59:58Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t see how you can justify not giving people a choice in what government they have. Personally, I find it quite easy to “justify” on the basis of pragmatism and reasonable expectations. I would no more give the average person a vote than I would hand a live grenade to a toddler. The risks outweigh the benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Taenia\_spp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5e925/32.png) [@Taenia\_spp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taenia_spp)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/25 "2011-01-23T22:32:56Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Can’t say I’ve ever heard this “perfect ideal” notion espoused before now. Most of the people I talk to about it these days seem to have a marked distrust and distaste for the U.S. government. > > That would be a rather ambiguous assertion, to say the least. > > And last but not least, a very dubious characterization of recent history. American policy is closely tied with international security concerns as well as our own in this example. What gets “spread” in the form of government replacing dysfunctional regimes is a default consequence more than any intention to seed the world with democracy. Installing those benevolent dictators in such short supply would certainly be an easier, cheaper, quicker option. In some circles there might be dissatisfaction with the US Government, but that’s not to say people don’t necessarily support the concept of democracy. There’s been quite a few media stories that have this tone of fear that democracy is eroding around the world. For instance, the NPR story about Hungary ([here](http://www.npr.org/2011/01/15/132964317/Critics-Fear-Democracy-Is-Eroding-In-Hungary)) has quotes from Mr. Kovacs, the former EU commisioner, who expresses great concern about the state of democracy in the former communist country. Former President Bush has repeatedly emphasized his push to spread democracy in the Middle East (see [here](http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal-te.bush07nov07,0,5347312.story) and [here](http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2007/09middleeast_telhami.aspx%5B)) ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/26 "2011-01-23T22:45:37Z")
> [@Taenia\_spp](#): > > Former President Bush has repeatedly emphasized his push to spread democracy in the Middle East (see [here](http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal-te.bush07nov07,0,5347312.story) and [here](http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2007/09middleeast_telhami.aspx%5B)) War is much more palatable to voters on the home front and politically achievable in Congress when sold as “spreading democracy.” ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/27 "2011-01-23T22:46:27Z")
> [@godix](#): > > Democracies provide more freedoms for all of it’s citizens than non-democracies do. > > Democracies perform better economically than non-democracies. > > Democracies have better social support systems for it’s worst off than non-democracies. > > … True, and very pertinent to the question ‘Should my country be a democracy?’. Not necessarily pertinent, hovever, to the question ‘Should other countries be democracies?’. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/28 "2011-01-24T04:15:45Z")
many countries have long standing workable democracy tradition (e.g. Finland, Chile, Argentina, Japan to some extent) but have no tradition of beating up (verbally, economically and sometimes even militarily) on other countries accusing them of insufficient democracy. Which tells me that the issue is not so much democracy being so good that the good news must be spread to the whole world by word or by sword but rather that some countries just like having a nice excuse to push around others. If the ones doing the pushing around obviously cease being democratic they will find another ideological justification for their actions - be it CO2 emissions, or the right of children to get sex ed in kindergarten, or some other such worthy cause. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/29 "2011-01-24T04:52:40Z")
The other systems most people are familiar with are Communism (a system for starving your population to death), Fascism (a system for having one part of your population murder the other part), or Monarchy (a system that works by fits and starts until some moron inherits the throne and everything goes to hell). Naturally, representative democracy is considered preferable. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/30 "2011-01-24T15:38:10Z")
Barring some actual divine intervention, there is no mandate to govern that is better than consent of the governed. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/31 "2011-01-24T15:47:49Z")
Isn’t having a low barrier to exit and letting citizens “vote with their feet” a better sign of the consent of the governed than aggregating the opinions of [rationally ignorant](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_ignorance) voters? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/32 "2011-01-24T17:16:01Z")
No, I do not think that forcing someone to leave their home in order to replace their government is a better form of consent than letting people, whatever level of education or ignorance they choose to maintain, select their government. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/33 "2011-01-24T18:16:48Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Personally, I find it quite easy to “justify” on the basis of pragmatism and reasonable expectations. I would no more give the average person a vote than I would hand a live grenade to a toddler. The risks outweigh the benefits. Who decides and on what basis? ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/34 "2011-01-25T00:40:53Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Barring some actual divine intervention, there is no mandate to govern that is better than consent of the governed. > [@](#): > > No, I do not think that forcing someone to leave their home in order to replace their government is a better form of consent than letting people, whatever level of education or ignorance they choose to maintain, select their government. Which is all wonderfully idealistic, and would doubtlessly result in a gloriously perfect utopia in the perfect world. Now, however, let’s come back to our real world, in which issues tend to be more complex. Here’s a typical scenario: the majority of State X faults the minority for whatever currently ails it. The majority wants the minority rounded up and shot. There is no question as to this mandate. Would you have this mandate carried out? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/35 "2011-01-25T01:23:11Z")
Would I? No. Would a leader elected by those folks? Probably. It’s still a more perfect mandate to govern than an un-elected dictator ever has. It might be an evil mandate, but it’s still an improvement over the arbitrariness of a dictator. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/36 "2011-01-25T01:34:33Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Saying a culture can’t handle democracy speaks more of the dysfunction of the people in that culture than of democracy. No it says something of the person saying it. We used to hear this all the time about South Africa. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/37 "2011-01-25T02:17:18Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Which is all wonderfully idealistic, and would doubtlessly result in a gloriously perfect utopia in the perfect world. > > Now, however, let’s come back to our real world, in which issues tend to be more complex. Here’s a typical scenario: the majority of State X faults the minority for whatever currently ails it. The majority wants the minority rounded up and shot. There is no question as to this mandate. Would you have this mandate carried out? That’s all very well, but this scenario is _more_ likely in a non-democracy, not less (at least in the last few decades). I’ve been meaning to make a reasonably long, comprehensive post for the last day or two. I’m sure I will get so far eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/38 "2011-01-25T03:48:35Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Here’s a typical scenario: the majority of State X faults the minority for whatever currently ails it. The majority wants the minority rounded up and shot. There is no question as to this mandate. Would you have this mandate carried out? Here in the real world, such mandates are commonly carried out by Communist, Fascist, and similar types of dictatorships rather than by democracies. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/39 "2011-01-25T04:00:41Z")
Every time I see this thread pop up I think ‘Well, if Democracy wouldn’t dress up in stockings and a mini-skirt all the time, West wouldn’t be like that…’ -XT ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601/40 "2011-01-25T04:25:06Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > or the same as ‘democracy’ in Asia (say, Japan or South Korea, which some people don’t think have ‘democracy’ at all). What is their justification for thinking that those countries don’t have democracy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-the-west-have-such-a-hardon-for-democracy/568601.md?page=3)