# Why does this racial disparity exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2011, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-this-racial-disparity-exist/574603 "2011-03-14T00:38:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-this-racial-disparity-exist/574603/81 "2011-03-18T17:31:36Z")
> [@scamartistry](#): > > bottom line. Blacks commit much more crimes than any other ethnic group. FACT. now, how can we solve this? More punishment. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-this-racial-disparity-exist/574603/82 "2011-03-18T17:49:45Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The only solution is more punishment. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > Oh, sure. That’ll work… It has worked. From 1980 to 2000 the prison population in the United States increased from 315,974 to 1,428,187. During this time the crime rate per 100,000 inhabitants declined from 5,950.0 to 4,124.8. It continued to decline during the twenty first century. In 2009 the crime rate per 100,000 inhabitants was 3,465.5. By contrast, from 1960 to 1970 the prison population declined from 212,953 to 196,429. The crime rate per 100,000 inhabitants increased from 1,887.2 to 3,984.5. [http://www.jacksonprogressive.com/issues/lawenforcement/punishment.pdf](http://www.jacksonprogressive.com/issues/lawenforcement/punishment.pdf) > **[United States Crime Rates 1960 t0 2019](https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm)** > > United States crime statistics, United States , United States rape, United States murder, United States property crime, United States crime index, United States violent crime, violent crime in State, United States burglary, United States vehicle... ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-this-racial-disparity-exist/574603/83 "2011-03-18T19:56:37Z")
> [@Airmotive](#): > > Yeah…I’m a (mostly) white guy. But I move pretty easily between cultures, graduating from a couple HBCUs in the process. To stand here and say there isn’t a self-destructive culture of criminality and/or violence that has taken root in black culture (in general) and many black communities (in particular) is to deny reality. Just as it would be equally unjust to claim there are no peaceful, law-abiding black communities: I’ve lived in a couple. > > Let’s play a game. > If a Constitutional amendment was passed today, banning the arrest of anyone of African heritage and depositing $100,000 into the hands of every black American, what do you think the result would be? Would there be a flood of young black men enrolling college? Would the streets of inner-city Gary, Compton or Detroit suddenly become safe to walk at night? Would shop owners remove the bars from their windows? > An \*honest \* answer to the scenario of this ‘game’ reveals a self-destructive (violent) problem in America’s black culture. > Do I have the solution? Nope. > But the denial that there is a cultural issue at work is, in fact, part of the problem. I’m not denying that many black people live in a different culture than mainstream American culture. The issue is why does this separate culture exist? Does it exist because black people have a gangsta gene? Does it exist because black people choose to live in a separate culture? Or does it exist because mainstream America won’t give black people access to mainstream culture? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-this-racial-disparity-exist/574603/84 "2011-03-18T21:39:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m not denying that many black people live in a different culture than mainstream American culture. The issue is why does this separate culture exist? Does it exist because black people have a gangsta gene? Does it exist because black people choose to live in a separate culture? Or does it exist because mainstream America won’t give black people access to mainstream culture? Blacks are discriminated in favor of through affirmative action policies. Blacks who perform adequately and behave decently often do well in American society. At the very least, they are accepted. An excellent explanation of how and why different racial groups behave and perform can be found on The 10,000 Year Explosion: How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution. > **[Home - The 10k Year Explosion](https://the10000yearexplosion.com/)** ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-this-racial-disparity-exist/574603/85 "2011-03-18T22:27:45Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > It has worked. From 1980 to 2000 the prison population in the United States increased from 315,974 to 1,428,187. During this time the crime rate per 100,000 inhabitants declined from 5,950.0 to 4,124.8. It continued to decline during the twenty first century. In 2009 the crime rate per 100,000 inhabitants was 3,465.5. > > By contrast, from 1960 to 1970 the prison population declined from 212,953 to 196,429. The crime rate per 100,000 inhabitants increased from 1,887.2 to 3,984.5. So… an 8% reduction in incarceration saw a 100% increase in the crime rate in 10 years – that happened to be a decade characterized by large social upheavals, right? Well, from those tables I see: That from \*_1970-1980 prison population went up from 196,429 to 315,974_ \*(well over 50% ) while the **crime rate _continued to rise_ by about another 50% more**. Then **1980-1990 saw the crime rate per 100K stay virtually unchanged** (5950 to 5820) while the **prison population more than doubled** to 739,980. Only during the decade of 1990-2000, a decade of prosperity and demographic plateauing, \*\*\*then \*\*\*does crime drop by about a third, while prison populations double yet again. I guess they were grabbing only the lazy criminals between 1970 and 1990? Unarguably, more effective enforcement helps, but “more punishment” is not going to do the job if it’s seen as (your words) “the only solution”. It’s not that simple ( We already have mandatory sentences and three strikes laws, etc. Courts are NOT being particularly lenient. How much “more punishment” is there to deal out, anyway?) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-this-racial-disparity-exist/574603/86 "2011-03-18T22:49:03Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Blacks are discriminated in favor of through affirmative action policies. Blacks who perform adequately and behave decently often do well in American society. At the very least, they are accepted. > > An excellent explanation of how and why different racial groups behave and perform can be found on The 10,000 Year Explosion: How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution. > > [http://the10000yearexplosion.com/](http://the10000yearexplosion.com/) But again this is ignoring the central question. Why do blacks not match the American average without affirmative action? Your suggestion seems to indicate you feel it’s a genetic difference. Is that the case? And if so, why can some blacks ignore their genes and choose to perform adequately, behave decently, and be accepted by American society? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-this-racial-disparity-exist/574603/87 "2011-03-19T00:23:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Of course, I’m sure in another fifty years, you’ll be the first to concede that there was still a lot of racism back in 2011 - as you deny there are any racial problems in 2061. > > You want to know where it ends? It ends at zero. Not a relatively small amount of racism or an occasional incident of racism or less racism than in the past or just a little racism for old time’s sake. What we want is zero racism. No racism at all. > > So every day and every year we going to take racism and squeeze it into a smaller and smaller circle. And we’re going to keep doing that until it disappears. And we don’t care if you find yourself getting uncomfortable in there. What I predict is that fifty years from now blacks will still have low average IQs and high rates of crime and illegitimacy, and that people like you will still be blaming white racism, even though genes for intelligence and crime will have been discovered, and it will have been discovered that they are unevenly distribute among the races. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-this-racial-disparity-exist/574603/88 "2011-03-19T00:27:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But again this is ignoring the central question. Why do blacks not match the American average without affirmative action? Your suggestion seems to indicate you feel it’s a genetic difference. Is that the case? And if so, why can some blacks ignore their genes and choose to perform adequately, behave decently, and be accepted by American society? Genetic variability. Although the average IQ for a black person is 85, and the average for a white person is 100, some blacks are more intelligent than some whites. Many blacks are capable of learning skilled trades. An extremely small minority can learn one of the professions, although when affirmative action comes to an end the number of black professionals will decline fairly significantly. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-this-racial-disparity-exist/574603/89 "2011-03-19T00:34:56Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > So… an 8% reduction in incarceration saw a 100% increase in the crime rate in 10 years – that happened to be a decade characterized by large social upheavals, right? > > Well, from those tables I see: > That from \*_1970-1980 prison population went up from 196,429 to 315,974_ \*(well over 50% ) while the **crime rate _continued to rise_ by about another 50% more**. > > Then **1980-1990 saw the crime rate per 100K stay virtually unchanged** (5950 to 5820) while the **prison population more than doubled** to 739,980. > > Only during the decade of 1990-2000, a decade of prosperity and demographic plateauing, \*\*\*then \*\*\*does crime drop by about a third, while prison populations double yet again. > > I guess they were grabbing only the lazy criminals between 1970 and 1990? > > Unarguably, more effective enforcement helps, but “more punishment” is not going to do the job if it’s seen as (your words) “the only solution”. It’s not that simple > > ( We already have mandatory sentences and three strikes laws, etc. Courts are NOT being particularly lenient. How much “more punishment” is there to deal out, anyway?) The crime rate has continued to decline during the Great Recession. Unfortunately, prison conditions are still too humane. We have a large third world population, but we insist on maintaining a first world criminal justice system. If we returned to the thorough exploitation of prison labor, I predict additional declines in the crime rate. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-this-racial-disparity-exist/574603/90 "2011-03-19T00:36:55Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Genetic variability. Although the average IQ for a black person is 85, and the average for a white person is 100, some blacks are more intelligent than some whites. Many blacks are capable of learning skilled trades. An extremely small minority can learn one of the professions, although when affirmative action comes to an end the number of black professionals will decline fairly significantly. Okay, so you do seem to feel it’s a genetic issue. Your belief is that black people are not as smart on average as white people and black people have a genetic propensity to commit crimes and have illegitimate children. Then at this point I guess we’ll have to disagree. I don’t believe that black people are innately less intelligent than white people or are innate criminals or have any other inherent qualities which would cause them to succeed less. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-this-racial-disparity-exist/574603/91 "2011-03-19T01:19:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Okay, so you do seem to feel it’s a genetic issue. Your belief is that black people are not as smart on average as white people and black people have a genetic propensity to commit crimes and have illegitimate children. > > Then at this point I guess we’ll have to disagree. I don’t believe that black people are innately less intelligent than white people or are innate criminals or have any other inherent qualities which would cause them to succeed less. I respect your beliefs. 🙂 I do not think that all blacks have a genetic predisposition to commit crimes and have illegitimate children. I do think more blacks do than whites. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2011, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-this-racial-disparity-exist/574603/92 "2011-03-20T04:39:42Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > It has worked. From 1980 to 2000 the prison population in the United States increased from 315,974 to 1,428,187. During this time the crime rate per 100,000 inhabitants declined from 5,950.0 to 4,124.8. It continued to decline during the twenty first century. In 2009 the crime rate per 100,000 inhabitants was 3,465.5. > > By contrast, from 1960 to 1970 the prison population declined from 212,953 to 196,429. The crime rate per 100,000 inhabitants increased from 1,887.2 to 3,984.5. > > [http://www.jacksonprogressive.com/issues/lawenforcement/punishment.pdf](http://www.jacksonprogressive.com/issues/lawenforcement/punishment.pdf) > > [United States Crime Rates 1960 t0 2019](http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm) I think you may have a correlation causation problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-does-this-racial-disparity-exist/574603.md?page=4)