Why does this racial disparity exist?

[AlienVessels]

@Bricker

That’s a rather incredible conclusion. Since being stopped requires at least a reasonable, articulable suspicion of wrongdoing, I’d expect the majority to have done something wrong.

It’s not unlikely that the police will stop several (many?) people that fit the profile of a criminal they’re looking for. I doubt they all committed the crime. Unless the police magically find the perp on the first suspected match, I would expect the majority stopped to be innocent of the crime for which they are being stopped.

[LonesomePolecat]

@CannyDan

Huh? What did I miss here? athelas doesn’t state that blacks commit more crimes per capita, you do. And you repeat that in later posts. I’m gonna need a cite.

Go look at DOJ statistics.

[Bricker]

@AlienVessels

It’s not unlikely that the police will stop several (many?) people that fit the profile of a criminal they’re looking for. I doubt they all committed the crime. Unless the police magically find the perp on the first suspected match, I would expect the majority stopped to be innocent of the crime for which they are being stopped.

You appear to be picturing police stopping people in response to some sort of “all points bulletin” or “be on the lookout” request. In my experience, the majority of police stops I saw as a public defender were in response to the police observing conduct by the person being stopped. That is, the “reasonable, articulable suspicion” arose not from any third party description of a wanted criminal, but from suspicious conduct on the part of the person detained.

[CannyDan]

@CannyDan

Huh? What did I miss here? athelas doesn’t state that blacks commit more crimes per capita, you do. And you repeat that in later posts. I’m gonna need a cite.

@LonesomePolecat

Go look at DOJ statistics.

I’m not the one making the assertion. **Blake **relies on a statement that **athelas **didn’t make. I’m not gonna play cleanup.

[AlienVessels]

@Bricker

You appear to be picturing police stopping people in response to some sort of “all points bulletin” or “be on the lookout” request. In my experience, the majority of police stops I saw as a public defender were in response to the police observing conduct by the person being stopped. That is, the “reasonable, articulable suspicion” arose not from any third party description of a wanted criminal, but from suspicious conduct on the part of the person detained.

How would you become aware of stops that didn’t end in charges?

[LonesomePolecat]

@CannyDan

I’m not the one making the assertion. **Blake **relies on a statement that **athelas **didn’t make. I’m not gonna play cleanup.

My apology for the misunderstanding. However, in my own defense, you might have been just a little more clear about what you were asking a cite for. In any case, you really ought to take a look at those statistics. If nothing else, you’ll have a better fund of knowledge to work with when this dreary subject comes up again. And again. And again. And again …

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Blake

That is very telling. Note that the authors carefully avoid saying “mostly the only one”.

Don’t these words give you a little pause: “In these arrests, marijuana possession was always the highest charge”

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Starving_Artist

Once upon a time in the U.S. it was communities of European immigrants that had disproportionate crime rates. Once they assimilated into the rest of society both socially and economically, their crime rates began to reflect those of the population at large. Now the predominate areas of lower income lie within the black and Hispanic communities. As the black and Hispanic populations become economically and culturally assimilated into the rest of society (I say ‘culturally’ because it is very difficult for an ethnic group to acheive economic parity while remaining culturally segregated), you can expect their arrest and imprisonment rates to equalize also.

I don’t know if the problem is simply an assimilation issue. The roots of crime and poverty in the black community runs a lot deeper than the failure to assimilate.

I also take issue with the notion that the higher rates of incarceration in the black comunity is simply a reflection of higher poverty (or even higher criminal activity) in the black comunity.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@scamartistry

bottom line. Blacks commit much more crimes than any other ethnic group. FACT. now, how can we solve this?

Drug possession represents the the VAST majority of the crimes commited by blacks. FACT. Now, how can we solve this?

Well, perhaps that is the result of a MUCH MUCH higher incidence of drug use in the black community than the white community. Putting aside the notion that mandatory sentancing for possession of marijuana is stupid, the facts do not support this disparity (at least not as not anywhere as big as we end up seeing in incarceration rates).

War on drugs

Race and the war on drugs

[Bricker]

@AlienVessels

How would you become aware of stops that didn’t end in charges?

OK, good point. My own experience was probably skewed by the fact that I saw only the cases that made their way into the system.

So returning to the statement I was questioning:

@EasyPhil

Possession of marijuana is not a criminal offense in NYC, public display of it however is, so when you stop someone on the street and tell them to empty out their pockets and they happen to have some marijuana on them they are now able to be charged with a misdameanor.

You can’t safely say anything, since the vast majority of people stopped did nothing wrong at all.

The first claim is in error – forcing someone to empty their pockets does not transform their possession of marijuana from a violation to a misdemeanor.

But the second – that the vast majority of people stopped did nothing wrong – is probably safe, especially if we say “nothing wrong” means nothing that rises to the level of probable cause.

[CannyDan]

@LonesomePolecat

My apology for the misunderstanding. However, in my own defense, you might have been just a little more clear about what you were asking a cite for. In any case, you really ought to take a look at those statistics. If nothing else, you’ll have a better fund of knowledge to work with when this dreary subject comes up again. And again. And again. And again …

Accepted.

For clarity:

**Blake **made the assertion “Blacks commit far more crimes than whites per capita.” (The fact that he incorrectly attributed it to **athelas **is now irrelevant.)

Cite?

If there is something in “those statistics” you believe would be informative or persuasive or otherwise of value to me you may direct me to whatever that something may be. I’m willing to be persuaded.

This is (peeks at top of page to be certain) Great Debates, not the Pit. Unsupported assertions are not debate. Ball’s in your court.

[Starving_Artist]

@Damuri_Ajashi

I don’t know if the problem is simply an assimilation issue. The roots of crime and poverty in the black community runs a lot deeper than the failure to assimilate.

I also take issue with the notion that the higher rates of incarceration in the black comunity is simply a reflection of higher poverty (or even higher criminal activity) in the black comunity.

You’re exactly right, on both counts. A certain amount of the crime and poverty in black communites is also a result of resentment caused by our country’s history of racism, which leads to more aggressive criminal activity and also creates a determination to maintain a separate culture, which then stands in the way of assimilation and upward mobility in jobs and income.

[Little_Nemo]

Let’s step back and look at the big picture.

Why aren’t black people in the mainstream? Is it because they don’t want to enter the mainstream or is it because the mainstream doesn’t want to let them in?

[Bricker]

@CannyDan

Accepted.

For clarity:

**Blake **made the assertion “Blacks commit far more crimes than whites per capita.” (The fact that he incorrectly attributed it to **athelas **is now irrelevant.)

Cite?

If there is something in “those statistics” you believe would be informative or persuasive or otherwise of value to me you may direct me to whatever that something may be. I’m willing to be persuaded.

This is (peeks at top of page to be certain) Great Debates, not the Pit. Unsupported assertions are not debate. Ball’s in your court.

I don’t know what “far more” means, but I can show that blacks are convicted of more crimes than whites are, per capita. For example, in New York (PDF file), 35% of the arrests for misdemeanor criminal mischief were of blacks. 58.5% of the arrestees for murder and non-negligent manslaughter were black. 46% of rape arrestees were black.

But blacks comprise a mere 23% of the city’s population.

[Lakai]

@Bricker

The first claim is in error – forcing someone to empty their pockets does not transform their possession of marijuana from a violation to a misdemeanor.

It looks like the author of that article misunderstood his sources. NYC complaints never say that the police officer forced the marijuana into open view, and therefore it’s a misdemeanor. The common grip among NYC public defenders is that police will lie about the marijuana being in open view after they find it during a search of the suspect.

I worked for legal aid in NYC this past summer, so my experience is limited, but the complaints I saw read along the lines of “officer observed suspect taking out a green leafy substance” and then the defendants would say they never took anything out in public. So either we have a lot of insanely stupid criminals (which I wouldn’t be too surprised about) or the police are making up facts in their complaints.

But the second – that the vast majority of people stopped did nothing wrong – is probably safe, especially if we say “nothing wrong” means nothing that rises to the level of probable cause.

I would question the level of reasonable suspicion as well. Police don’t need reasonable suspicion to follow a car and wait for a traffic violation. And once they see a violation, they now have probable cause to make an arrest, and the right to do a legal search.

And aren’t you suspicious of complaints that have officers observing marijuana possession at great distances, or of officers seeing defendants take out their drugs for a few moments and then conceal them again for no apparent reason? Especially since none of the defendants charged seem to confirm these complaints?
The difficult in reforming these police practices is that it appears that no innocent minorities are being arrested. The problem is that more guilty minorities are arrested than guilty white people. Besides racial profiling by police, there are other factors at work here. Most calls that police get about crimes being committed are overwhelmingly about minorities. Police have reasonable suspicion to investigate targets of those phone calls. Also, most poor people look suspicious, and lots of minorities are poor.

So long as crime stays down, and the people being arrested are guilty of the crimes charged, the collective response from politicians on higher searches of minorities will be very weak. The alternatives are to have less searches and more crime, or search more white people and deal with an army of lawyers at your doorstep.

[Starving_Artist]

@Little_Nemo

Let’s step back and look at the big picture.

Why aren’t black people in the mainstream? Is it because they don’t want to enter the mainstream or is it because the mainstream doesn’t want to let them in?

I think that these days the answer is probably more than they don’t want to enter the mainstream than it is that the mainstream doesn’t want to let them in, even though vestiges of the latter are still to be found.

It almost like things have gone down like this:

Blacks: We demand equal rights!

Whites: Okay, you’re right. We’ve passed laws and now you have equal rights.

Blacks: Good! Now go away and leave us alone!

[CannyDan]

@Bricker

I don’t know what “far more” means, but I can show that blacks are convicted of more crimes than whites are, per capita. For example, in New York (PDF file), 35% of the arrests for misdemeanor criminal mischief were of blacks. 58.5% of the arrestees for murder and non-negligent manslaughter were black. 46% of rape arrestees were black.

But blacks comprise a mere 23% of the city’s population.

Thank you, Bricker. That’s at least responsive. But it does not necessarily answer my question or directly support Blake’s assertion. Blacks may indeed be “convicted of more crimes than whites are, per capita” but it does not necessarily follow that they actually commit more. In point of fact, the OP seems to accept this statistical reality but attributes it to “racial discrimination in the 21st century”.

Blake denies racial discrimination, and suggests that other socioeconomic factors are the cause of the disparity. We then have Superhal contending “Actually, the evidence of racial discrimination in drug cases is so historically well-documented that even trying to address this amounts to a case of ad homenim.”. We have Starving Artist talking about resentment and “more aggressive criminal activity” or something. And Blake repeats and repeats his claim that blacks actually commit more crimes. So far though, no one has brought any evidence to the table.

Until Bricker. And that evidence can be read either way, as evidence that blacks are far more criminally inclined, or that they are more often the targets of selective enforcement or even the scapegoats of a racist system. Given that the OP’s cite includes this

Government surveys of high school seniors and young adults 18 to 25 consistently show that young whites use marijuana more often than young blacks and Latinos. The arrests also are heavily skewed by gender. About 91 percent of people arrested were male.

I am inclined to go with the ‘selective enforcement at best, racial animus at worst’ interpretation. I remain interested in evidence that will disabuse me.

[EasyPhil]

@Bricker

I don’t believe this is an accurate statement of the law.

It’s true that the basic charge of Unlawful Possession of Marijuana (PL Section 221.05) is a violation, not a criminal offense. (Although if the quantity exceeds 25 grams, it becomes a criminal matter).

But the act of police requiring you to empty your pockets cannot transform your possession into a crime, since you had no criminal actus reus.

That’s a rather incredible conclusion. Since being stopped requires at least a reasonable, articulable suspicion of wrongdoing, I’d expect the majority to have done something wrong.

What’s your evidence for this claim?

Here’s a summary of the data here:

http://ccrjustice.org/files/CCR_Stop_and_Frisk_Fact_Sheet.pdf

[EasyPhil]

@AlienVessels

How would you become aware of stops that didn’t end in charges?

You know because the police record the stops and record the information in a database.

If an individual is stopped, questioned and frisked, an officer fills out a “stop-and-frisk report,” a UF-250 form. The UF-250 Form requires officers to document personal information such as the individual’s name, address, age, gender, race and physical description. Even if an individual is not arrested, such personal information is then retained by the Police Department and recorded in a database.

http://epic.org/privacy/stopandfrisk/default.html

[Little_Nemo]

@Starving_Artist

I think that these days the answer is probably more than they don’t want to enter the mainstream than it is that the mainstream doesn’t want to let them in, even though vestiges of the latter are still to be found.

So you feel that there is something inherently different about black people that predisposes them to form a separate culture?

@Starving_Artist

It almost like things have gone down like this:

Blacks: We demand equal rights!

Whites: Okay, you’re right. We’ve passed laws and now you have equal rights.

Blacks: Good! Now go away and leave us alone!

You really feel that’s how it happened?

It was more like this:

Blacks: We demand freedom!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand freedom!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand freedom!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand freedom!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand freedom!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand freedom!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand freedom!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand freedom!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand freedom!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand freedom!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand freedom!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand freedom!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand freedom!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand freedom!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand freedom!
Whites: Well, okay, we’ll give you freedom but you don’t have any rights.
Blacks: We demand civil rights!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand civil rights!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand civil rights!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand civil rights!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand civil rights!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand civil rights!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand civil rights!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand civil rights!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand civil rights!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand civil rights!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand civil rights!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand civil rights!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand civil rights!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand civil rights!
Whites: Well, okay, you can have your civil rights but you’re not equal.
Blacks: We demand equality!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand equality!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand equality!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand equality!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand equality!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand equality!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand equality!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand equality!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand equality!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand equality!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand equality!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand equality!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand equality!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand equality!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand equality!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand equality!
Whites: No.
Blacks: We demand equality!
Whites: Well, okay, we’ll give you some equality. But why do you act so resentful? Haven’t we given you everything you asked for?

I mean, really, why do those black people have such a chip on their shoulder? To hear them talk, you’d think they had to wait four hundred years before getting any equality.