By what measurement? By removing all those horrible WMD? chortle
Milum, you’ve been prevented with a number of cites proving that Iraq could very probably did get biological weapons from the US, as recently as 1992. “Damn man, have balls”… care to answer those posts with something more than a drive-by? Looks to me like the answer to your question about Bush I is probably “yes.”
[ul][]We won (That’s the main thing.)[]Quickly (no “quagmire”)[]Few Coalition casualties.[]Few civilian casualties[]Limited destruction of infrastructure.[]Only a handful of oil well fires set by Saddam[]The war did not spread into other countries[]The war did not lead to uprisings in other countries[]Many political prisoners were released, including children.[]Efforts to reverse Saddam’s environmental damage are now occurring.[/ul]
“Why doesn’t America plant WMD evidence in Iraq?”
Because if discovered this would be Bush’s Watergate. Thirty years from now college students would be writing essays on why Bush, who seemed very capable of beating his challengers, would throw it all away by planting evidence when a good deal of Americans didn’t care about it.
december, careful with the “no ‘quagmire’” statement. There’s still the whole rebuliding thing.
A few weeks ago, CNN announced on their ticker that this was the anniversary of the death of “Joan of Ark.” The media makes these stupid mistakes all of the time. I wouldn’t necessarily find that reason to discount the information, unless I had a reliable source disputing it.
Winning or losing was never the point. Nobody ever thought we would lose. Winning doesn’t make it ok.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by december *
**[ul][li]We won (That’s the main thing.)[]Quickly (no “quagmire”)[]Few Coalition casualties.[]Few civilian casualties[]Limited destruction of infrastructure.[]Only a handful of oil well fires set by Saddam[]The war did not spread into other countries[]The war did not lead to uprisings in other countries[]Many political prisoners were released, including children.[]Efforts to reverse Saddam’s environmental damage are now occurring.[/ul] **[/li][/QUOTE]
While you implied it, I think “people aren’t being fed feet-first into woodchippers” is a worthy addition as well.
That being said, the quagmire equation is unknown. Everything could still go to hell. Frankly, in that region, it doesn’t take much.
We’ll see. :).
Retcon.
Granted, nobody serious thought we would lose. But very few media outlets predicted just how well the combat would go.
[slight hijack]
We don’t know for sure that they ever really were. (By the way, the rumor says that it was a plastic shredder, and the incident was witnessed, possibly ordered, by Uday Hussein.) I posted a thread about this a few months ago, and pretty much, there wasn’t any solid evidence. IIRC, it boiled down to the testimony of one refugee before a comittee.
I also remember the testimony of the Kuwaiti ambassador’s daughter before Congress that she had seen Iraqi soldiers tossing Kuwaiti babies out of incubators onto the floor. It was later proven untrue.
Saddam was an evil son-of-a-bitch. I’ll grant you. Hell, I’d even say he’d be quite happy to use a plastic shredder to torture people, but there’s no solid evidence that he ever * did. *
IIRC, one Doper posted in the thread that s/he had searched the internet for a commercial plastic shredder large enough to admit a human being, and was unable to find one offered for sale that was large enough.
I’d like to see some evidence before I’ll regard the story as much more than an urban legend.
Lissa-- My mistake then. But the example is illustrative, not the reason in and of itself. But you’re right, I shouldn’t have said it without looking into it more carefully. My mistake. :).
You are forgiven.
Go and sin no more. 
One reason might be that it would be exceedingly difficult for Bush and friends to plant WMDs that could stand up to nspection by European experts. And it will HAVE to work that way – no one outside the U.S. (and only saps inside the US) is going to “buy” WMDs that only American experts have inspected.
A good, thorough, CSI type investigation of any WMDs would probably turn up anomalies in any fake WMDs that would give them away.
ThanX Lissa. I don’t have any cites that can add to what you’ve given.
I just assumed that this stuff had certainly come up before on the SDMB.
Sorry to have shocked you Milum.
On the contrary, most of the media predicted it would be over in days, despite the administration’s usual tactic of trying to lower expectations (thereby providing an artificial sense of “surprise” in the end). White House lackeys went on the Sunday morning shows parakeeting the line that we should “not expect this process to go quickly…it might take months…” etc. It’s sort of the poitical equivelent when a used car lot provides big “discounts” off of greatly inflated prices. The Bushies were pointing behind our backs at a hand wringing, hippie straw Cassandra that never existed. The vast majority of those who opposed the war expected that it would not be a fight. The notion that war protesters were predicting a “quagmire” was simply subliminal horseshit dropped into the conversation by the Bushies themselves. I know and have corresponded with a great number of very liberal, anti-Bush, pot smoking, vegetarian, pinko, anti-war types. I don’t know a single person who thought there would be a quagmire. In fact, a lot of us were surprised that the invasion went as poorly as it did, and the subsequent occupation of Baghdad has been a fiasco.
We were against the war because it was wrong, not because we thought it would be difficult.
I haven’t seen the other thread that you refer to, but plastic shredders do come in large enough sizes:
http://www.newlifeplastics.com/capabilities.htm
(Of course, the mere existence of such items doesn’t prove the story).
This is the thread I was referring to.
I need to make two corrections to my previous posts on this issue. The person said that they * had * found a plastic shredder large enough. Also, it was Qusay, not Uday who “supervised.”
I apologize for the errors.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by december *
**[ul][li]We won (That’s the main thing.)[]Quickly (no “quagmire”)[]Few Coalition casualties.[]Few civilian casualties[]Limited destruction of infrastructure.[]Only a handful of oil well fires set by Saddam[]The war did not spread into other countries[]The war did not lead to uprisings in other countries[]Many political prisoners were released, including children.[]Efforts to reverse Saddam’s environmental damage are now occurring.[/ul] **[/li][/QUOTE]
You’re missing the point, december… I can’t say I’m surprised.
When I asked “by what measure was the war a success?” I meant something more like “what goals were stated prior to the war that were acheived by the war?”
A litany of reasons the war went well after the fact does not justify the war.
Let’s see… here’s the reasons we heard about before the war.
The big one, pretty inarguably the primary reason the Bush Administration used to justify the war: Weapons of Mass Destruction found? Not yet, and not looking good.
Hussein (Public Enemy #1) found and imprisoned/killed? Doesn’t look that way.
Free and democratic government established in Iraq? Haven’t seen any real progress in this department yet.
So, once again with feeling, december, what stated goals of the war have been thus far acheived by the war? This, and only this, are its true measure of success. Be sure to back up your answer with facts… blogs don’t cut it.
And “We won” does not justify a war, unless you feel that might makes right.
“Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war.” - John Adams
Another reason:
We claimed there was TONS of stuff. You can’t plant that much. Such a shipment would require way to many people to know about it. It would come out sooner rather than later. Planting a vial or two, something that could be done with only a few people knowing, would be pretty useless. It would be like, “We went to war for this?!”
So planting is not an option simply because it’s not possible to plant the needed evidence in the quantities necessary.
Bush’s goal was regime change. He said Saddam’s regime was evil. You will recall the fuss over the phrase, “Axis of evil”. You may not like that reason, but it’s certainly what the President has been telling us for some time.
BTW, an Iraqi general says in the LA Times that Iraq retained the ability to manufacture WMDs.
It’s a very interesting interview. If it’s true, Iraq didn’t possess stores of weapons, but they were a threat just the same.
But that’s what they’re doing with the trailers, adaher. They’re pointing to a few flat-beds (that are completely clean of biological and chemical material) and saying “look, we were justified in going to war.” So, actually it seems that “a vial or two” of stuff would be substantial for this administration.
No one’s addresed a point I made earlier. Are these not the perfect ‘vehicles’ (pardon the pun) of conspiracy? They could be driven in with the knowledge of only one or two persons and the chances of them being traced back to American’s is close to zero. So perhaps the payoff here was small, but the risk was almost nothing.
Isn’t war for the sake of regieme change either (a) against international law or (b) a war crime? I’m pretty sure its one of the two, I just don’t remember which one.