# Why doesn't botulism grow in garbage "juice?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 26, 2017, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331 "2017-09-26T04:15:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/1 "2017-09-26T04:15:27Z")
You know “trash juice” - that icky, foul-smelling liquid that collects at the bottom of the trash bag in the kitchen garbage can. Isn’t it a prime breeding ground for botulism? It’s anaerobic and much of it is often vegetable or fruit liquid content, or kitchen scraps. Why doesn’t botulism happen more often (from inhalation, or skin contact with the stuff?) Why don’t garbage collectors get that sort of disease more often? ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/2 "2017-09-26T04:24:53Z")
What makes you think it’s anaerobic? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/3 "2017-09-26T04:27:35Z")
First, you must draw the distinction between botulism spores, which are ever present in our environment, and botulism toxin, which is produced by the spores in an anaerobic low acid environment. Anaerobic means airless. Botulism spores are basically harmless. It’s the toxin that can kill you, not the spores. It’s a concern in canning foods, both commercial and home canned, but easily defeated through either creating an acid environment (think pickles) or heating foods to a high enough temperature to kill all botulism spores. Garbage “juice” is nasty, but it does not contain botulism toxin. Hope this answers your questions. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/4 "2017-09-26T04:31:50Z")
Because that gunk isn’t anaerobic enough. Most garbage cans aren’t air tight and relatively plenty oxygen seeps into the bottom of the bin, likewise, there’s sufficient oxygen even in your typical closed garbage bag to suppress the growth of botulism. Even small amounts of oxygen are toxic to botulism, it takes very little to keep it in spore form rather than growing. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/5 "2017-09-26T04:34:11Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > What makes you think it’s anaerobic? Isn’t basically any sizable quantity of liquid anaerobic in the parts in the inside that don’t touch the outside air? So if you have a few ounces of - well, trash juice - then only a part of it comes in direct contact with air; everything under the surface is shielded from oxygen. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/6 "2017-09-26T04:34:56Z")
New from Hormel Canned garbage juice! Pre-dented, for your convienence. On shelves now! ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/7 "2017-09-26T04:41:08Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Isn’t basically any sizable quantity of liquid anaerobic in the parts in the inside that don’t touch the outside air? > So if you have a few ounces of - well, trash juice - then only a part of it comes in direct contact with air; everything under the surface is shielded from oxygen. Doesn’t work like that, not in canning, anyway. You need an airless environment created by a vacuum. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/8 "2017-09-26T05:35:42Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > You know “trash juice” - that icky, foul-smelling liquid that collects at the bottom of the trash bag in the kitchen garbage can. No. And I am certainly not a neat-freak. ---
**Author:** ![anomalous1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@anomalous1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anomalous1)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/9 "2017-09-26T05:50:34Z")
I am a neat freak for the most part, but I still get trash juice on occasion. My trick is to always line my garbage can with paper towels or newspaper and throw a crumpled one or a paper box from the recycling in the bag. Absorbs most of it, so I don’t have to risk leaking that crap through the kitchen if the bag tears. Depending on what you throw away, tossing a dryer sheet in the can is also a nice idea, so it doesn’t smell, or is barely perceptible. As for botulism, I don’t think it can develop (toxin) to an appreciable level in garbage water at all and even then, you’re not going to be drinking it anyhow and even getting it on your hand isn’t a big deal although it’s just gross. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/10 "2017-09-26T06:31:03Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Isn’t basically any sizable quantity of liquid anaerobic in the parts in the inside that don’t touch the outside air? > So if you have a few ounces of - well, trash juice - then only a part of it comes in direct contact with air; everything under the surface is shielded from oxygen. If it’s water-based, then no. Oxygen is soluble in water - it’s how fish survive. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/11 "2017-09-26T08:39:45Z")
I never cease to be surprised at you guys from The New World. Over here, everyone I know puts a plastic bag in the kitchen bin and disposes of it daily into the outside bin (in our case, also lined with a plastic bag. So no foul juice in the bottom.— Ewww ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/12 "2017-09-26T11:09:32Z")
And even if it did have botutoxin in it, so what? Nobody drinks garbage juice. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/13 "2017-09-26T11:40:52Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Isn’t basically any sizable quantity of liquid anaerobic in the parts in the inside that don’t touch the outside air? > > So if you have a few ounces of - well, trash juice - then only a part of it comes in direct contact with air; everything under the surface is shielded from oxygen. Nope, oxygen dissolves in water and a lot of other liquid things and then diffuses more or less evenly throughout the medium. There is no “shielding” from oxygen. As pointed out, this is why fish can breathe. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/14 "2017-09-26T12:49:37Z")
I just came back to work from a couple weeks off, and there were iridescent fungal colonies on the surface of coffee I’d left in a closed thermos (they’d probably been growing for at least a month, the last time I used the thermos). That’s got to be worse than botulism. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/15 "2017-09-26T14:08:38Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > I never cease to be surprised at you guys from The New World. Over here, everyone I know puts a plastic bag in the kitchen bin and disposes of it daily into the outside bin (in our case, also lined with a plastic bag. > > So no foul juice in the bottom.— Ewww I don’t think this is a new world/old world issue. I use trash bags and take them out to the curb when they get full (usually not daily though, unless I had a big mess to clean up that day). Also, if you don’t put liquids in your trash, there’s no juice. “Trash juice” is rarely an issue for me at home. It was a much bigger issue when I worked in restaurants, because customers don’t care to keep liquids out of the trash when it isn’t their trash. But restaurants usually use really heavy duty trash bags, so leaking isn’t a common problem. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > I just came back to work from a couple weeks off, and there were iridescent fungal colonies on the surface of coffee I’d left in a closed thermos (they’d probably been growing for at least a month, the last time I used the thermos). > > That’s got to be worse than botulism. Nothing is worse than botulism. According to Isaac Asimov, it’s the most potent poison in existence. He said less than a thimbleful of the toxin could kill every last person on earth. I don’t think coffee mold is nearly as bad, though of course I won’t test that theory by eating it. ---
**Author:** ![sitchensis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sitchensis/32/4892_2.png) [@sitchensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sitchensis)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/16 "2017-09-26T15:16:26Z")
There have been cases of botulism from garlic and herb oils. I’d assume that if your trash juice was mostly oil you could create an atmosphere that you could get botulism toxin but then that toxin has to make it back to a person and not just a landfill. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/17 "2017-09-26T15:46:04Z")
There have been cases of botulism from honey - honey naturally contains the spores and while an adult’s immune system can deal with it infants can not, which is why you must never feed honey to an infant - the spores will grow in their intestines (which are lacking in oxygen), generate toxin, and make them ill or even kill them. Which is the other side of the coin - your digestive tract actually does have a way to deal with the spores, which you encounter from time to time in life. The problem isn’t the spores, it’s when the critters come out of the spores, start metabolizing, and generate toxins that you get problems. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/18 "2017-09-26T16:22:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Nobody drinks garbage juice. True but it could evaporate. ---
**Author:** ![anomalous1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@anomalous1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anomalous1)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/19 "2017-09-26T22:55:36Z")
Too heavy to float with evaporation, and even if some could, it just puts them in an even more oxygen rich environment which will render it inert. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2017, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331/20 "2017-09-26T23:02:04Z")
If botulism produced spores in the tiny amount of water at the bottom of a garbage can, it could grow in every pond, puddle, and drainage ditch. But the water in those ponds, puddles, drainage ditches, old tires, and garbage cans isn’t anaerobic. This is why botulism only becomes a problem in sealed cans, not in every half-empty pickle jar in the back of your fridge. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-botulism-grow-in-garbage-juice/797331.md?page=2)