# Why doesn't civil disobedience have a stronger appeal among Palestinians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 23, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673 "2009-01-23T18:01:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/21 "2009-01-23T21:16:33Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Right my point is that the Gandhi might not emerge specifically from an arbitrary ethnic pool, but might emerge from the whole of the population. A Ghandi can be stilted by being born on the upper west side and therefore have no cause to take up. He might become a civil rights lawyer or something instead. There is no reason to think that it is governed by the size of the ethnic population. Two factors have to be satisfied, he has to grow to maturity and there has to be sufficient need for him to become such a person. There is no reason to believe that a big tree has a greater possibility of forming a Ghandi than a small tree, when not all trees bear such fruit. I don’t think it has anything to do with ethnicity. The Palestinian nation, regardless of its ethnic character, is not a large one. By contrast, there were a lot of Indians living under the British Raj. Gandhi forged a national identity of civil disobedience, incorporating western ideas via Thoreau with Indian spirituality and, quite literally, homespun underclothes. I maintain that a leader of this caliber needs to arise in Palestine to make this effective, a leader who can effectively redefine the culture of resistance. There were plenty of acts of terrorism committed against the Raj. Gandhi was able to stop many of these both through his leadership, strength of personality, and the truly awesome effect he had on his own people. This is what empowered civil disobedience in India. I also believe the same could occur in Palestine. But there simply is a reason to believe that it is more likely to occur in a large nation given the improbability of the event in the first place. Not all trees bear such fruit in any given time, but I would expect that if you waited for a long enough time, you would observe the effect I am suggesting exists. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/22 "2009-01-23T21:18:28Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Not being snarky here, but you do realize we didn’t invent this approach, right? This isn’t an American thingy…we (well, several of our past leaders like MLK) borrowed the idea. Nitpick: actually, it is. MLK borrowed it from Gandhi. Gandhi borrowed it from Thoreau. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/23 "2009-01-23T21:19:36Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > I don’t think it has anything to do with ethnicity. The Palestinian nation, regardless of its ethnic character, is not a large one. By contrast, there were a lot of Indians living under the British Raj. Gandhi forged a national identity of civil disobedience, incorporating western ideas via Thoreau with Indian spirituality and, quite literally, homespun underclothes. I maintain that a leader of this caliber needs to arise in Palestine to make this effective, a leader who can effectively redefine the culture of resistance. Agreed, but I don’t think population size has anything to do with this. > [@](#): > > There were plenty of acts of terrorism committed against the Raj. Gandhi was able to stop many of these both through his leadership, strength of personality, and the truly awesome effect he had on his own people. This is what empowered civil disobedience in India. I also believe the same could occur in Palestine. But there simply is a reason to believe that it is more likely to occur in a large nation given the improbability of the event in the first place. Not all trees bear such fruit in any given time, but I would expect that if you waited for a long enough time, you would observe the effect I am suggesting exists. Right, but I am arguing that it emerges in the human race. That the entire species is the super-set, not the ethnic agglomeration. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/24 "2009-01-23T21:19:43Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Not being snarky here, but you do realize we didn’t invent this approach, right? This isn’t an American thingy…we (well, several of our past leaders like MLK) borrowed the idea. From whom did Americans borrow this idea? He may have a funny French last name, but Thoreau was definitely American. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/25 "2009-01-23T21:20:38Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Nitpick: actually, it is. MLK borrowed it from Gandhi. Gandhi borrowed it from Thoreau. Actually it’s Jewish idea. Thoreau borrowed it from Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/26 "2009-01-23T21:21:24Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] Nitpick: actually, it is. MLK borrowed it from Gandhi. Gandhi borrowed it from Thoreau. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Maeglin] From whom did Americans borrow this idea? He may have a funny French last name, but Thoreau was definitely American. [/QUOTE] Good point…I stand (well, sit) corrected. Still, it’s not entirely an American phenomena. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/27 "2009-01-23T21:21:54Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Agreed, but I don’t think population size has anything to do with this. > > Right, but I am arguing that it emerges in the human race. That the entire species is the super-set, not the ethnic agglomeration. Ok. Partition the human race into ten units. Let’s make three of them arbitrarily large and seven of them arbitrarily small. One Civ 4 super leader or whatever arises. The likelihood that he arises in any one of the three large partitions is greater than him arising in any one of the seven small ones. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/28 "2009-01-23T21:34:03Z")
In his book _Prisoners_ Jefrrey Goldberg asks a palestinian friend of his this question and the reply was that the palestinians are men. To be abused and not fight back would make them feel dishonored and emasculated. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/29 "2009-01-23T21:37:28Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > In his book _Prisoners_ Jefrrey Goldberg asks a palestinian friend of his this question and the reply was that the palestinians are men. To be abused and not fight back would make them feel dishonored and emasculated. Yeah, those Indians weren’t real men. They never committed any violence against their British oppressors. They just bent over and took it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/30 "2009-01-23T21:38:44Z")
That’s what happens when you think with your dick. You end up stepping on it with your golf shoes. Ask Bush… -XT ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/31 "2009-01-23T21:39:42Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Ok. Partition the human race into ten units. Let’s make three of them arbitrarily large and seven of them arbitrarily small. One Civ 4 super leader or whatever arises. The likelihood that he arises in any one of the three large partitions is greater than him arising in any one of the seven small ones. Are the three large ones together greater than the seven small ones together? I think you’re taking the statistical analysis too far. You’re correct from a theoretical standpoint but it’s predictive capacity is null. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/32 "2009-01-23T21:43:25Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Are the three large ones together greater than the seven small ones together? I think you’re taking the statistical analysis too far. You’re correct from a theoretical standpoint but it’s predictive capacity is null. Not at all. I am agnostic on which of the larger partitions will pop up in, but I am pretty confident that you have more Great Leaders in the big ones. Not just successful politicians, but real consciousness-changing individuals. Gandhi. Mao. Stalin. MLK. Hear about any great prophets popping up among, say, the Roma lately? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/33 "2009-01-23T21:53:15Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Not at all. I am agnostic on which of the larger partitions will pop up in, but I am pretty confident that you have more Great Leaders in the big ones. Not just successful politicians, but real consciousness-changing individuals. Gandhi. Mao. Stalin. MLK. > > Hear about any great prophets popping up among, say, the Roma lately? The Roma are a scattered population that is insular. How would you and I even know if they had a great leader? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/34 "2009-01-23T23:56:16Z")
Some people have suggested that the palestinians would “civilly disobey” for the right to move about their own country or some nonsense. That they already can do. They just can’t move around what is not their country. And given that a goodly number of them are hellbent on ruining what they have anyway, that seems unlikely to do anything of use. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/35 "2009-01-24T00:41:12Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > In his book _Prisoners_ Jefrrey Goldberg asks a palestinian friend of his this question and the reply was that the palestinians are men. To be abused and not fight back would make them feel dishonored and emasculated. No, it sounds like his point is that they were too _macho_. After all, MLK and Gandhi and Thoreau were also men, as were a good many of their followers. ETA: Well, that may not have been HIS particular point. But it sounds like these particular Palestinians don’t understand the difference between being a man and being a chauvanist. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/36 "2009-01-24T00:56:12Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > However, I have been told that to assume that the ME/Arab/Palastinian culture does not want peace, or has negative (violent) tendencies and won’t embrase an olive branch as a bigoted stereotype. This is so true. The Palestinian’s chief demand is Peace. And land. The Palestinian’s two chief demands are peace and land. And self-rule. The Palesinian’s three chief demands are peace, land, and self-rule. And death to all Jews. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/37 "2009-01-24T01:02:24Z")
65 percent of the Palestinians are children. There is not a lot of leverage. They would be barely noticed. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/38 "2009-01-24T02:13:01Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > That they already can do. They can’t, though…that’s the thing. You know I’m pro-Israeli, and that I tend to take the Israeli side in these debates, but the Palestinians don’t have freedom of movement. Israeli checkpoints block their freedom of movement, as do the curfews. Here’s a World Bank analysis of Palestinian restrictions and their effect on the Palestinian economy, from 2007 (in PDF): [http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTWESTBANKGAZA/Resources/WestBankrestrictions9Mayfinal.pdf](http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTWESTBANKGAZA/Resources/WestBankrestrictions9Mayfinal.pdf) from the summary: > [@](#): > > Currently, freedom of movement and access for Palestinians within the West Bank is the exception rather than the norm contrary to the commitments undertaken in a number of Agreements between GOI and the PA. In particular, both the Oslo Accords and the Road Map were based on the principle that normal Palestinian economic and social life would be unimpeded by restrictions. In economic terms, the restrictions arising from closure not only increase transaction costs, but create such a high level of uncertainty and inefficiency that the normal conduct of business becomes exceedingly difficult and stymies the growth and investment which is necessary to fuel economic revival.. . . > > In the West Bank, closure is implemented through an agglomeration of policies, practices and physical impediments which have fragmented the territory into ever smaller and more disconnected cantons. While physical impediments are the visible manifestations of closure, the means of curtailing Palestinian movement and access are actually far more complex and are based on a set of administrative practices and permit policies which limit the freedom of Palestinians to move home, obtain work, invest in businesses or construction and move about outside of their municipal jurisdiction. These administrative restrictions, rooted in military orders associated with the occupation of West Bank and Gaza (WB&G), are used to restrict Palestinian access to large segments of the West Bank including all areas within the municipal boundaries of settlements, the “seam zone”, the Jordan Valley, East Jerusalem, restricted roads and other ‘closed’ areas. Estimates of the total restricted area are difficult to come by, but it appears to be in excess of 50% of the land of the West Bank. While Israeli security concerns are undeniable and must be addressed, it is often difficult to reconcile the use of movement and access restrictions for security purposes from their use to expand and protect settlement activity and the relatively unhindered movement of settlers and other Israelis in and out of the West Bank. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/39 "2009-01-24T02:36:47Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > I know that there are some Palestinians who advocate the tactics of Gandhi and King, although they are, to an American at least, rather obscure. I had never heard of them until I asked about it here. I also noticed that none of the people mentioned was a Muslim. Is it just a case of too much bad blood that makes this approach untenable? > > Thanks, > Rob Arguably, there’s no need for civil disobedience. They could accomplish quite a lot just by being civil. But anyway, I don’t think it’s very strong in their culture. What’s strong in their culture is violence, martyrdom, jihad, etc. My opinion only. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673/40 "2009-01-24T02:40:03Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > I also noticed that none of the people mentioned was a Muslim. Is it just a case of too much bad blood that makes this approach untenable? > [@Brazil84](#): > > But anyway, I don’t think it’s very strong in their culture. What’s strong in their culture is violence, martyrdom, etc. > My opinion only. Doctor Abuelaish, well known Palestinian peace militant living in Gaza, [had three daughters killed](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/18/world/middleeast/18doctor.html?_r=3&th&emc=th) [while he was live on Israeli TV](http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=sUh6xVlndhM&feature=related) He stated latter that he would keep working in the Israeli hospital where he practises medicine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-civil-disobedience-have-a-stronger-appeal-among-palestinians/482673.md?page=3)