# Why Doesn't Congress Declare War? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075 "2009-10-08T17:35:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HerrRuby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bcef8e/32.png) [@HerrRuby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HerrRuby)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/1 "2009-10-08T17:35:39Z")
We all know that Congress has the sole power to “Declare War” (section 8 of the U.S. Constitution). We have fought many wars since WWII (the last war that I know of that was declared a “war” by congress). Vietnam, Korea, Panama, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. were never declared by congress as “wars” ( to the best of my recollection). Why do the President, the congress, the media, and everybody else still call them “wars”? Why doesn’t congress declare war anymore? My suspicion: congressmen know that if they declare war, then they obligate us to WIN the war (as we did in the declared wars WWI &WWII). If they don’t “declare” war, then we don’t have to pull out all the stops to win, we can take our time, let 10’s of thousands of our soldiers die, leave hundreds of thousands wounded, let the people who profit from manufacturing the war tools get richer, and when we lose (like Vietnam) congressmen and the President don’t have to hang their heads in shame! ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/2 "2009-10-08T17:45:52Z")
> [@HerrRuby](#): > > My suspicion: congressmen know that if they declare war, then they obligate us to WIN the war (as we did in the declared wars WWI &WWII). If they don’t “declare” war, then we don’t have to pull out all the stops to win, we can take our time, let 10’s of thousands of our soldiers die, leave hundreds of thousands wounded, let the people who profit from manufacturing the war tools get richer, and when we lose (like Vietnam) congressmen and the President don’t have to hang their heads in shame! Not really. I’ll quote my own brilliant answer [here:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=356227) > [@](#): > > Two reasons: First, there’s generally conceived to be a political difference between what can be termed general, total, or unlimited war, and limited war. General war is when a country mobilizes all of its power (military, industrial, political) to a conflict. World War II is a good example. An authorization for a use of force (which was passed for Vietnam and both Iraq wars) implies a lesser degree of mobilization, and sometimes can be intended to constrain the President in his warmaking power. The political idea of mobilizing our entire country to a war footing to take on, for example, Afghanistan, just strikes many as being politically out of scope. > > Second, in a point related to the first, a declaration of war triggers a number of special powers that the President may only claim during times of declared war (but not limited, authorized war). For example, if Congress were to declare war on Iraq, the President could mobilize as many National Guardsmen for as long as he pleased. Under a use of force resolution, the President is statutorily limited to mobilizing 1 million reservists for not more than 2 years active duty. If Congress does not want to give the President these various and sundry powers of which there are dozens, then it would not wish to pass a declaration of war. ---
**Author:** ![tullsterx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tullsterx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tullsterx)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/3 "2009-10-08T17:49:48Z")
What bothers me most about this and many other constitutional issues is that there is no power that will step in and ensure that the constitution is followed. Generally, it seems, if the executive branch, and the legislative branch act in unison and the supreme court isn’t forced into deciding some specific case that relates to the issue at hand, then they can do anything they want regardless of the constitution. Shouldn’t the branches of government be strictly bound to adhere to the constitution? I think so. . . they should be obligated to enforce all laws as well. But, I think the obvious arguement against the President having to wait for congressional approval before committing troops is one related to expediancy. If the president had to wait for congress to act, then we probably wouldn’t be in many wars. . . Damn, that sounds like a good idea, and what the founding fathers probably had in mind when they added the congressional power to declare war. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/4 "2009-10-08T17:53:09Z")
Oh, and anticipating where the discussion may go, there is a misconception that “authorizations for the use of military force” are a recent invention designed to take the place of a formal declaration of war. This is not true. Congress passed an authorization for the use of military force against the French navy in 1789 and against Tripolitan ships in 1802 before the first declaration of war in 1812. In all, Congress has passed 11 declarations of war (for five wars) and roughly a similar number of authorizations for military force. So, don’t believe those people who say that Congress “MUST” declare power in order to exercise its war power, so as to cast aspersions on the constitutionality of authorizations for military force. The Founding Fathers themselves did not see the need to declare war for every conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/5 "2009-10-08T18:06:54Z")
There’s also the personal butt-covering element at work: Congresscritters will go on record as voting for or against war, and that can be used against them for the rest of their lives. But if they authorize the \*President \* to make the decision, they can stand with him if he wins big and attack him rhetorically if he loses or chooses not to fight. Hence, IMHO, Congresscritters prefer not to be pinned down and will generally avoid a declaration of war if they can. Presidents are complicit in this as they prefer to act without deferring to Congress or appearing to need its permission. ---
**Author:** ![pan1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e495f1/32.png) [@pan1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pan1)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/6 "2009-10-08T19:26:45Z")
> [@tullsterx](#): > > What bothers me most about this and many other constitutional issues is that there is no power that will step in and ensure that the constitution is followed. > > Generally, it seems, if the executive branch, and the legislative branch act in unison and the supreme court isn’t forced into deciding some specific case that relates to the issue at hand, then they can do anything they want regardless of the constitution. Trust me, if the president violates the constitution, there will be someone of the opposite party in congress being the first to call for impeachment. Congress answers to the people and is “tried” by seeking periodic re-election. Congress regularly creates laws that violate the constitution. When they do, and someone suffers because of it, they present their case and the Supreme Court rules. If no one suffers for it, then there is no issue. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/7 "2009-10-08T19:37:37Z")
> [@HerrRuby](#): > > My suspicion: congressmen know that if they declare war, then they obligate us to WIN the war (as we did in the declared wars WWI &WWII). If they don’t “declare” war, then we don’t have to pull out all the stops to win, we can take our time, let 10’s of thousands of our soldiers die, leave hundreds of thousands wounded, let the people who profit from manufacturing the war tools get richer, and when we lose (like Vietnam) congressmen and the President don’t have to hang their heads in shame! Why would a formal declaration of war obligate us to win the war? Or obligate us to pull out all the stops to win? We could declare war against, say, Japan, and then get our asses kicked, and ask for a peace treaty despite losing the war and despite there being a formal declaration of war. And how did the lack of a formal declaration of war make losing in Vietnam less shameful? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/8 "2009-10-09T13:30:38Z")
> [@HerrRuby](#): > > We all know that Congress has the sole power to “Declare War” (section 8 of the U.S. Constitution). We have fought many wars since WWII (the last war that I know of that was declared a “war” by congress). Vietnam, Korea, Panama, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. were never declared by congress as “wars” ( to the best of my recollection). Why do the President, the congress, the media, and everybody else still call them “wars”? Hard to deny what they obviously are. All part of our Presidentially declared War on Terror. > [@](#): > > Why doesn’t congress declare war anymore? To avoid the political heat. This way, when things go south, they can plead that they were misled by the President. > [@](#): > > My suspicion: congressmen know that if they declare war, then they obligate us to WIN the war (as we did in the declared wars WWI &WWII). If they don’t “declare” war, then we don’t have to pull out all the stops to win, we can take our time, let 10’s of thousands of our soldiers die, leave hundreds of thousands wounded, let the people who profit from manufacturing the war tools get richer, and when we lose (like Vietnam) congressmen and the President don’t have to hang their heads in shame! Most of these people have no shame. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/9 "2009-10-09T16:30:37Z")
> [@HerrRuby](#): > > Why doesn’t congress declare war anymore? It’s just no longer good politics; and there’s just no need too. The presumption is that all wars are illegal unless authorized by the UN or if you’re acting in self defense. This is the recognized international model. So, if you formally declared war, it might give the impression of illegal aggression (the other side would say, hey, we didn’t start this, they DECLARED WAR ON US! We’re just acting in self defense to that declaration of war). Why take that risk when it’s totally unnecessary. No State has issued a formal declaration of war since 1948. It’s just not done. Domestically it seems to be required, though (the whole constitution thing); but hundreds of years of practice of going to war without a declaration has given the Executive and Congress other constitutional options. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/10 "2009-10-09T16:36:58Z")
I think this will get a better hearing in GD. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/11 "2009-10-09T17:26:29Z")
There’s the issue of international law. The United Nations Charter (which the United States is a signatory to and which is therefore American law) prohibits member nations from declaring war except under a few narrow limits. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2009, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/12 "2009-10-09T17:41:12Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > There’s the issue of international law. The United Nations Charter (which the United States is a signatory to and which is therefore American law) prohibits member nations from declaring war except under a few narrow limits. Sort of, but not really. The UN Charter doesn’t say anything about declarations of war. The Charter places restrictions on the use of armed forces to solve disputes, unless authorized by the Security Council or in self-defense. How a country authorizes its military to do so really isn’t a concern of international law. People really get hung up on this idea that a declaration of war is something really important. It may be important domestically or in political opinion, but it really isn’t important on the world stage. The laws of war (including things like the Geneva Conventions) aren’t triggered by a declaration of war. You don’t get around any kind of international obligations by saying, “Yeah, we’re fighting this other country, but it isn’t a war, because we’ve only authorized the use of force!” Instead, the laws of war apply to situations of armed conflict of an international nature: undeclared wars, declared wars, police actions, whatever – those situations are all covered by the laws of war. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/13 "2009-10-09T18:11:37Z")
> [@pan1](#): > > Trust me, if the president violates the constitution, there will be someone of the opposite party in congress being the first to call for impeachment. > > Congress answers to the people and is “tried” by seeking periodic re-election. > > Congress regularly creates laws that violate the constitution. When they do, and someone suffers because of it, they present their case and the Supreme Court rules. If no one suffers for it, then there is no issue. The impeachment process does absolutely nothing to a president in a second term and likely nothing even in his first term. Both Presidents whom have been impeached in office, finished their respective terms. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/14 "2009-10-09T20:04:09Z")
I don’t think there has been a declared war since WWII. I think that’s a thing of the past. For instance, Britian did not declare war on Argentina. There was a huge war in Africa the Second Congo War, often called “Africa’s World War” and no one declared war, despite many nations being involved Countries don’t see a need to declare a war and with all the formalities that go along with it. ---
**Author:** ![RickRavenRumney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f8ce5/32.png) [@RickRavenRumney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickRavenRumney)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/15 "2014-09-03T09:30:09Z")
> [@HerrRuby](#): > > We all know that Congress has the sole power to “Declare War” (section 8 of the U.S. Constitution). We have fought many wars since WWII (the last war that I know of that was declared a “war” by congress). Vietnam, Korea, Panama, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. were never declared by congress as “wars” ( to the best of my recollection). Why do the President, the congress, the media, and everybody else still call them “wars”? Why doesn’t congress declare war anymore? > My suspicion: congressmen know that if they declare war, then they obligate us to WIN the war (as we did in the declared wars WWI &WWII). If they don’t “declare” war, then we don’t have to pull out all the stops to win, we can take our time, let 10’s of thousands of our soldiers die, leave hundreds of thousands wounded, let the people who profit from manufacturing the war tools get richer, and when we lose (like Vietnam) congressmen and the President don’t have to hang their heads in shame! I don’t know if you ever served in the armed forces, but I have. I am retired from Navy and spent 20 years, retiring as an TMC(SS/DV), Some of it was great, some bad and sometime just ok. Just like Pizza and Sex. I served in several combat zones. I also inoculated kids from diphtheria, small pox, polio, measles, mumps et al. I have built orphanages. I rescued our citizens during Katrina, Andrew, Hugo and many others. What have you done for your fellow man? I don’t know why you feel such hostilities toward the military industrial complex. We live in a capitalist society and those industries that you rail against are the reason we are second to none in the world when it comes to equipment, technology and the caliber of solider, airman sailor and Marine that this country puts out there. Remember, we have an all volunteer military and less than 1% of the US Population is serving in the US Military today. 1% out of 310,000.000 people. We do have a very selfish country. That’s why people are killing themselves to get here. There is no draft. Nobody’s arms get twisted to join. It gets fully explained to each potential recruit that if hostilities break out, they will probably go and serve in that conflict. Chances that a member of the military will die in an accident than be killed in action. Check the DoD Stats. That’s very true. So easy with the Halliburton conspiracies and such. Anyway, the reason why Congress does not declare war is for a very simple LEGAL reason. If the Congress of the United States of America declares war on any country or enemy; As soon as the President signs that war declaration it activates every treaty we have with every country that is our allies. Meaning if we are attacked and declare war, every country that is in NATO must go with us, same with OAS, Organization of American States, SEATO; the Southeast Asia treaty Organization and many others. So do you see why it’s just not done in the modern world? The President can, for 90 days under the War Powers Act and his unique position of Commander in-Chief of the military can wage war without congress’s say so. But…Congress must meet to either authorize or vote down his authority. No President, after asking Congress for a Use of Force Resolution has ever been denied once he has gone to Congress, pled his case and asked for an Authorization of Continuing the use of the war Powers Act. Later RRR-retired TMC (SS/DV) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/16 "2014-09-03T10:38:40Z")
The person you are trying to argue with hasn’t been here in over four years, and apparently just posted that one message and ran anyway. They’ll never hear you. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/17 "2014-09-03T16:59:24Z")
> [@RickRavenRumney](#): > > Anyway, the reason why Congress does not declare war is for a very simple LEGAL reason. If the Congress of the United States of America declares war on any country or enemy; As soon as the President signs that war declaration it activates every treaty we have with every country that is our allies. Meaning if we are attacked and declare war, every country that is in NATO must go with us, same with OAS, Organization of American States, SEATO; the Southeast Asia treaty Organization and many others. So do you see why it’s just not done in the modern world? I don’t think this is correct. NATO and SEATO are defensive organizations. Their member nations are obligated to support any other member nation if it is attacked. But there’s no obligation to support another member nation if it is attacking. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/18 "2014-09-03T18:33:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t think this is correct. NATO and SEATO are defensive organizations. Their member nations are obligated to support any other member nation if it is attacked. But there’s no obligation to support another member nation if it is attacking. Also, NATO members aren’t obligated to help unless the invaded nation specifically requests that they do so. For example, the UK chose to forego (forewent?) NATO support when Argentina invaded the Falklands. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/19 "2014-09-03T18:59:26Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Also, NATO members aren’t obligated to help unless the invaded nation specifically requests that they do so. For example, the UK chose to forego (forewent?) NATO support when Argentina invaded the Falklands. There’s a clause in the North Atlantic Treaty that only obligates member states to assist if another member state is attacked in certain areas: Europe, North America, the Mediterranean Sea, the Atlantic Ocean north of the Tropic of Cancer, Turkey (after 1951), and Algeria (before 1963). This is why NATO didn’t get involved when the Chinese sent “volunteers” into French Indochina or when Argentina occupied the Falklands. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-congress-declare-war/513075/20 "2014-09-03T20:25:34Z")
This thread parallels the current thread, [The Power to Declare War Does Not Rest with the President](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=732707). Since this is a revived zombie thread, I am closing it to avoid confusion. [/Moderating]