# Why doesn't Denmark start World War III? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 9, 2006, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676 "2006-02-09T12:52:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/21 "2006-02-09T17:22:38Z")
Guys, can I just point out that, to any rational human being, the thread title is practically a self-answering question? And it remains so with the substitution of any agency in place of ‘Denmark’. What set of provocations might “starting World War III” (remembering what the last act of World War II was) be an appropriate response to? Other than, I suppose, the instant transformation of the entire human race into a pack of flesh-eating zombies? Seriously, I love the way that the Straight Dope has no ‘unthinkable propositions’, I think it’s great that we can dispassionately dissect the most extreme propositions as if discussing the finer points of early Renaissance musical notation… but, DAY-UM! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/22 "2006-02-09T17:23:05Z")
> [@Dice](#): > > “The cartoons did nothing that transcends the cultural norms of secular Denmark, and this was not a provocation to insult Muslims, as a Jew, and the son of a holocaust survivor, I would not allow racism to happen. It was a mistake. Just like the attack on the USS Liberty was a mistake” said Flemming Rose, cultural editor of Jyllands-Posten, Denmark’s largest newspaper, which has refused to apologize for publishing the drawings. > > Flemming Rose (born 1956) is a Danish journalist, author and the current cultural editor at the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten. He was responsible for the first publishing of the cartoons in the Muhammed cartoons crisis. > > He has links with US neoconservatives and in October 2004 travelled to the US to visit Daniel Pipes, the well known Zionist neoconservative thinker. > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemming\_Rose](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flemming_Rose) > > Daniel Pipes is a HardCore Zionist who would stifle all academic criticism of his beloved Israel. Some describe him as a “leading anti-Muslim hate propagandist”. So one guy hates Muslims, prints a cartoon and therefore he “started the shit”? Uhh, no. Idiots (which he may be) are always going to publish inflamatory material. The answer is not buring of embassies. Nor is it to try and stifle their right to be idiotic. ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/23 "2006-02-09T17:23:50Z")
(or, what **John Mace** said :smack: ) ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/24 "2006-02-09T17:26:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > **Liberal** , **pseudotriton** , do you have any belief whatsoever that invading the Islamic world will be successful in achieving broader respect for freedom of the press? > > If not, such a war would fail the first test of a just war. It would fail a lot of other tests, too. > > I’ll note that the attacks on the US Embassy on Beijing after the bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade were also orchestrated by government machinations. I was there. I saw it all, including the city buses that were organized to shuffle angry students in and out of the embassy area. > > It’s also worth noting that the first protests of this cartoon, and many subsequent protests, were NOT state sponsored. I’m specifically saying that going to war over cartoons would be a terrible thing, and that the western world should do almost anything to avoid going to war over it. But I think Denmark, and all the allies with whom they have defense treaties, should be telling any country that has allowed an embassy to be fire-bombed, or which is not clearly and vigorously denouncing and punishing those who committed such an act of war against Denmark, that by its actions they are risking a war that they do not want. If this is perceived as a bluff, then send troops in to stand on their borders. If that is perceived as a bluff, have the troops invade fifty feet into the offending country but not fire a shot. If that is perceived as a bluff, etc. If the choice is living in a world where atrocities are committed by fanatics seeking to impose their religious standards on secular nations by force or tolerating life under those standards, I’m for asserting the price to pay, with every warning that this is intolerable behavior. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/25 "2006-02-09T17:30:03Z")
> [@Dice](#): > > \*\*A Jew started the shit \*\* Is there any particular relevance of your entire post to this thread? Regardless of the ethnic or religious heritage of one Danish editor, the topic under discussion is the appropriate international reaction to violence when launched in response to publications. There is nothing in this thread that requires any reference to Israel or to any person identified as Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/26 "2006-02-09T17:44:04Z")
> [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > If this is perceived as a bluff, then send troops in to stand on their borders. If that is perceived as a bluff, have the troops invade fifty feet into the offending country but not fire a shot. If that is perceived as a bluff, etc. So, when Danish troops are standing in downtown Damascus, being subjected to car bombs and other terrorist actions, shall Denmark threaten to develop a nuke to turn Syria into a piece of glass? What should be done if the Syrian people call the bluff? You don’t avoid war by forcing yourself into a corner of having to go to war for fear of having one’s bluff called. Seriously, in a year or two this will all be a loooong way out of most people’s conciousness. The embassies will be rebuilt, despotic governments will find new ways to rile up their people, and the overwhelming majority of Muslims will still not like acts that they take to be blasphemous. Going to war will only change the situation for the worse. And, in answer to the last line of the OP, I fail to see why governments should be ready to send their people to kill and die to protect what is really racist speech. Defending people’s right to say bad things doesn’t mean you have to kill to protect bigotry. On a related question, do you think that nations should threaten Germany with war if it does not abolish laws prohibiting Nazi speech? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/27 "2006-02-09T17:54:23Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Is there any particular relevance of your entire post to this thread? Regardless of the ethnic or religious heritage of one Danish editor, the topic under discussion is the appropriate international reaction to violence when launched in response to publications. There is nothing in this thread that requires any reference to Israel or to any person identified as Jewish. Because he’s jackass posting in what is essentially a ridiculous thread. > [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > But I think Denmark, and all the allies with whom they have defense treaties, should be telling any country that has allowed an embassy to be fire-bombed, or which is not clearly and vigorously denouncing and punishing those who committed such an act of war against Denmark, that by its actions they are risking a war that they do not want. If this is perceived as a bluff, then send troops in to stand on their borders. If that is perceived as a bluff, have the troops invade fifty feet into the offending country but not fire a shot. If that is perceived as a bluff, etc. If the choice is living in a world where atrocities are committed by fanatics seeking to impose their religious standards on secular nations by force or tolerating life under those standards, I’m for asserting the price to pay, with every warning that this is intolerable behavior. The “price” is that such nations would furthur isolate themselves from the rest of the modern civilized world. I recall another such war where I believe it was Austria-Hungary that invaded some Balken nation to avenge some insult - the assassination of some minor aristocrat. I remember it ending very badly. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/28 "2006-02-09T18:04:59Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > a ridiculous thread… Maybe. But aren’t defense treaties supposed to empower the weaker countries with the military might of all its allies? And if a country defends or justifies in any way an act of war against Denmark’s sovereign soil, isn’t it complicit in that act of war? I’m just not getting what’s keeping this attack on Denmark’s embassy, and the subsequent lack of a denunciation by the “host” country, from being an act of war. Not every act of war must end in war, of course, and I’m all for every step to prevent that end, but I’d like this at least to be identified as an act of war which the West is choosing to tolerate in the interests of world peace. I feel it’s being treated as some kind of regrettable minor incident, and I don’t think the consequences, or potential consequences, for the firebombers is being noticed. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/29 "2006-02-09T18:09:50Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I recall another such war where I believe it was Austria-Hungary that invaded some Balken nation to avenge some insult - the assassination of some minor aristocrat. **I remember it ending very badly.** Jeez, you must be _really_ old. Sorry, I just couldn’t resist. Nice analogy though. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/30 "2006-02-09T18:22:13Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Because he’s jackass posting in what is essentially a ridiculous thread. And you are in violation of the rules of this Forum. Do not hurl personal insults in **GD**. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/31 "2006-02-09T19:06:17Z")
Even if you accept that Iran and Syria have fanned the flames of this situation and that they didn’t do anything to protect the Danish embassies, can you really call this an act of war? > [@](#): > > I’m just wondering why so many Western nations are being as gentle in response to this blatent attack on the freedom of the press as they seem to be. They aren’t standing up for Denmark because they don’t think there’s anything in it for them. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/32 "2006-02-09T19:14:50Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Even if you accept that Iran and Syria have fanned the flames of this situation and that they didn’t do anything to protect the Danish embassies, can you really call this an act of war? > > They aren’t standing up for Denmark because they don’t think there’s anything in it for them. If the U.S. had firebombed the Soviet embassy during the Cuban missile crisis, would that have constituted an act of war? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/33 "2006-02-09T19:38:41Z")
> [@Tagos](#): > > Who knows? Oil is a world market (and Iran is the 4th largest oil producer), as Bush’s lackies were saying when they qualified his recent remarks. Are you seriously contending the world economy can run without Middle East oil? First, I’m impressed with the speed at which you put together all those cites; I’m guessing you must have had some of this stuff ready to go for just such an eventuality. Thing is, I’m not disagreeing with you on this particular point, and I would be foolish indeed to claim that the world economy is not dependent to some extent on oil from the Middle East. But that’s not really the subject under discussion here. Let’s go back to your original argument: > [@Tagos](#): > > Because we need their oil more than they need anything from us and if that means sucking up to the dark age fantasies of a bunch of savage fanatics then that’s what we’ll do. I don’t see where Denmark or any other country has done anything specific to ‘suck up’ to a Middle Eastern country on this issue. For example, Denmark apparently has done nothing to change its laws, sanction the newspaper that originally published the cartoons, or really made any concessions at all. If you’ve got some examples of this supposed ‘sucking up’, _specific to this issue_, I’m all ears (or eyes, I guess). ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/34 "2006-02-09T19:39:26Z")
> [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > Wasn’t burning down their embassy an attack on Danish soil, technically? > > I agree (for those who were planning on lecturing the OP about posting such a stupid, self-destructive question) that it’s in Denmark’s and the world’s best interest NOT to enflame things more than they already are, but is the principle of free expression not at stake here? Shouldn’t every free society (i.e., society with a free press, not subject to overt state censorship) line up here with Denmark and send a message, with standing armies if needed, to the Muslim world that if they’re so concerned about cartoons or articles they find offensive to their religion, then they should simply restrict access to foreign media within their own borders? > > “We’re offended by these blasphemous cartoons.” > > “Yah, fine. Don’t let them in your country.” > > “No, we want you to ban them in your country, and punish those responsible for thinking them up.” > > “Not the way it works, Abdul. We get to ban what we feel like, which is precious little, thankfully, and you can live in the 12th century if you like and ban every medium that might offend your sensibilities. It’s your call, not ours.” > > “But if you don’t, we will commit acts of war upon you.” > > “That’s cool. And we will respond to your acts of war. You’ll be better off learning to live with tolerating free expressions outside of your borders, believe us.” > > Admittedly, I’m a free-expression fanatic and think this is a principle worth going to war over, and fully expect that few people on the SDMB or in the world, feel as strongly as I do about tolerating the expression of obnoxious points of view. I’m just wondering why so many Western nations are being as gentle in response to this blatent attack on the freedom of the press as they seem to be. Well, we do the same to them. We protest their public executions, or their torture methods or their lack of democratic organizations. So we are both meddling in each other’s internal affairs. Even relavist morality is relative. Some people adopt abosolute morality. In the eyes of the protestors Americans and Europeans live on Allah’s planet just like Arabs do. Here in the west we have absolute morality on human rights for example. We (the public, and to a lesser degree the government) feel human rights supercede politics, religion or ethnic situations. So you can’t get them to give up their protests anymore than you can get women in America to stop fighting to end sexism in Saudi Arabia. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/35 "2006-02-09T19:42:52Z")
> [@Dice](#): > > “The cartoons did nothing that transcends the cultural norms of secular Denmark, and this was not a provocation to insult Muslims, as a Jew, and the son of a holocaust survivor, I would not allow racism to happen. It was a mistake. Just like the attack on the USS Liberty was a mistake” said Flemming Rose, cultural editor of Jyllands-Posten, Denmark’s largest newspaper, which has refused to apologize for publishing the drawings. **Moderator’s Warning:** **Dice** , I was easily able to find a source for the first part of your Flemming Rose quote, up until “…insult Muslims”; see for example [this article from the _International Herald-Tribune_](http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/12/30/news/islam9.php). The rest of the quote which you attributed to Flemming Rose, from “as a Jew” to the end, does not seem to exist anywhere else on the Web except for your post to this thread. The description outside of the quotation marks (“cultural editor of Jyllands-Posten, Denmark’s largest newspaper, which has refused to apologize for publishing the drawings”) also matches the _Herald-Tribune_ article word for word. From the [Registration Agreement](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=347160) you accepted when you signed up for this board: > [@](#): > > You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use the SDMB to post any material that you know or should know is false… Don’t do this again. Any more violations of the Registration Agreement and you will be banned. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/36 "2006-02-09T19:44:54Z")
Look, there’s no list of “acts of war” which automatically necessitate a belligerent response by a nation. There isn’t, and it’s just a damn embassy. They can be rebuilt for much, much less money than what it takes to even threaten to prosecute a war. The thing you’re not getting is that even if burning an embassy is on some magical list of ‘acts of war,’ it is completely unrealistic to view that as an actual threat to Demark’s security. What you’re suggesting is that Demark threaten to resort to arms for something that is more of an insult to the country, as opposed to being a threat to Denmark. And on the silly Cuban Missle Crisis question, do _you_ think Krushchev would have launched his missiles if an American mob pelted the Soviet embassy? I don’t. It would have escalated the tension, to be sure, but hey – he already stood back and let the US Navy cordon off Cuba. Why should he kill millions – and have millions of his own killed – in order to protest some broken windows and maybe some smoke damage? If Nikita Friggin’ Krushchev can withstand the US Navy blockading an allied country, I think Denmark is rational enough to not start a world war over a cartoon. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/37 "2006-02-09T19:46:02Z")
Khrushchev. Khrushchev. I studied this in grad school. I should know this. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/38 "2006-02-09T19:51:14Z")
From a economic POV the EU have issued warninng to ME countries about an official boycott on Danish goods. [http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-20/0601313620185816.htm](http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-20/0601313620185816.htm) ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/39 "2006-02-09T20:16:00Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > Well, we do the same to them. We protest their public executions, or their torture methods or their lack of democratic organizations. So we are both meddling in each other’s internal affairs. > …So you can’t get them to give up their protests anymore than you can get women in America to stop fighting to end sexism in Saudi Arabia. Do you really mean to characterize burning down an embassy as equivalent in any way to a peaceful protest? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2006, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676/40 "2006-02-09T20:40:13Z")
> [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > If the U.S. had firebombed the Soviet embassy during the Cuban missile crisis, would that have constituted an act of war? Are Denmark and Iran in the midst of a cold war right now? I think this is one of those situations where the circumstances matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-denmark-start-world-war-iii/343676.md?page=3)