# Why doesn't H come before G in the alphabet? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 21, 2014, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656 "2014-07-21T12:00:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/21 "2014-07-21T18:08:02Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Have you tried Wiki for an explanation – which is actually quite simple and straightforward: > > The letter 〈C〉 was the western form of the Greek gamma, but it was used for the sounds /ɡ/ and /k/ alike, possibly under the influence of Etruscan, which might have lacked any voiced plosives. Later, probably during the 3rd century BC, the letter 〈Z〉 — unneeded to write Latin properly — was replaced with the new letter 〈G〉, a 〈C〉 modified with a small vertical stroke, which took its place in the alphabet. Yes, I did, and that doesn’t say _ **why** _ one comes before the other. > [@Colibri](#): > > Since I think the factual aspects of this question have been answered, let’s move this over to IMHO. Not really, but that’s fine by me. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/22 "2014-07-21T18:20:12Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Yes, I did, and that doesn’t say _ **why** _ one comes before the other. And that doesn’t say _ **why** _ you think someone messed up. Your question seems to stem from the belief that H should precede G in the alphabet. Where, pray tell, did you get that idea? ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/23 "2014-07-21T18:29:18Z")
H only comes before G if a cop asks you to recite the alphabet backwards. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/24 "2014-07-21T18:48:37Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > And even then, gamma is listed first. There is an “H” in Greek, but it is a diacritic, not a letter. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/25 "2014-07-21T18:52:58Z")
I believe that [this song](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc1RfFYxZ2I) prepared me to like “Wheel in the Sky.” It seems to be about the ego, or something. I mention it due to the proximity of I to H. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/26 "2014-07-21T18:56:07Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Let me tell you a little story. > > Once upon a time, a long time ago, several of the letters were resting after a hard day’s work. Now there weren’t as many letters then as there are now, because this was a very long time ago. H, who was a tough, strong worker, was looking at J, who was as lovely back then as she is now. H was entranced by J, so he invited her to go for a walk along the stream. > > Well, as time went on, H and J fell in love with each other, and eventually got married. A was the best man, and Z was the maid of honor. After H and J had been married for a couple years, they had a boy. And they named him I. I love that story. That’s just charming. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/27 "2014-07-21T18:59:22Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I love that story. That’s just charming. I would agree. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/28 "2014-07-21T19:47:28Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > And that doesn’t say _ **why** _ you think someone messed up. Your question seems to stem from the belief that H should precede G in the alphabet. Where, pray tell, did you get that idea? Exactly. Unless we know why you think H should come first, how can we explain why it doesn’t? Obviously whatever reason you have was not sufficient, so there must be some misconception or flaw. And, yes, the answer was explained. Z came before H in the Greek alphabet, and the useless Z was replaced with the new letter G, so it stayed in the same position as Z. It doesn’t answer why Z came before H, but that wasn’t the OP’s question. ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/29 "2014-07-21T19:53:57Z")
H doesn’t come before G because H knows how to treat a lady in bed. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/30 "2014-07-21T20:19:01Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > And that doesn’t say _ **why** _ you think someone messed up. Your question seems to stem from the belief that H should precede G in the alphabet. Where, pray tell, did you get that idea? This is going to be one of those threads where we never get to that bit, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/31 "2014-07-21T20:44:15Z")
The short answer is nobody really knows why the alphabet is in the order it is. It goes all the way back to the beginning; the earlier lists of letters we’ve found (going back 3000 years) use essentially the same order we use now. One theory is that back when letters were first being used, people created mnemonics to remember them. The mnemonics didn’t originally indicate an order; they were just a means to remind you of all the letters. For example, if you’re a medical student trying to memorize the bones in the human hand you might memorize “Some Lovers Try Positions That They Can’t Handle” (Scaphoid, Lunate, Triquetral, Pisiform, Trapezium, Trapezoid, Capitate, Hamate). But the order is random - there’s nothing about the scaphoid bone that puts it ahead of the lunate bone. But suppose you had some mnemonic that reminded you of all the letters in the alphabet. And suppose that mnemonic got used by generation after generation. At some point, people would start thinking of the order that the letters appeared in the mnemonic as their natural order - and think of the letters as being in that order even when they’re not reciting the mnemonic. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/32 "2014-07-21T21:08:41Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > This is going to be one of those threads where we never get to that bit, isn’t it? That does seem to be the case, doesn’t it? And because I have very little patience… **guizot** , please, I am begging you, for all that is holy, _please_ tell us why you believe the letters ‘G’ and ‘H’ are in the wrong order. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/33 "2014-07-21T21:23:28Z")
> [@GrandWino](#): > > H doesn’t come before G because H knows how to treat a lady in bed. I wish I’d thought of this one. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/34 "2014-07-21T21:28:43Z")
Is it because of that song? ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/35 "2014-07-22T03:39:47Z")
There is a reason given in the wikipedia entry for G. Ruga’s positioning of ‘G’ shows that alphabetic order related to the letters’ values as Greek numerals was a concern even in the 3rd century BC. The dropping of K had created a gap in the table of VALUES, they were using K for 7 but then spelling words with the letter C, (so that a person might here the number 7, but understand it as the sound K, and write “C” … right ? 🙂 ) So there is only the coincidence to go on , which is that at the same time as Ruga’s school corrects the missing sound G, they correct the missing value 7, but there we have it , a reason for G to be inserted in 7th place. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/36 "2014-07-22T04:09:46Z")
Fun fact: take the letter “E” and remove the lower bar, and it gives you the subsequent letter “F.” Take the lower remaining bar from “F” and it gives you the Cyrillic “G” (Г ). Does that have anything to do with the ordering of the letters? ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/37 "2014-07-22T05:40:40Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > **guizot** , please, I am begging you, for all that is holy, _please_ tell us why you believe the letters ‘G’ and ‘H’ are in the wrong order. Let’s just say that I have my reasons. That said, is it really that hard to envision an alphabet where H precedes G? Why so much resistance? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/38 "2014-07-22T06:09:29Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > That said, is it really that hard to envision an alphabet where H precedes G? Not really. It’s pretty easy to think [all sorts of thinks](http://www.amazon.com/Thinks-Think-Bright-Early-Board/dp/037585794X). But the question is not why it’s hard to imagine an alphabet where H precedes G, or where there isn’t even a G or H in it. What’s a little harder to imagine is why you think it should be in a particular order, especially when you’ve been shown a factual cite for it. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/39 "2014-07-22T06:12:51Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > So there is only the coincidence to go on , which is that at the same time as Ruga’s school corrects the missing sound G, they correct the missing value 7, > but there we have it , a reason for G to be inserted in 7th place. > [@TokyoBayer](#): > > What’s a little harder to imagine is why you think it should be in a particular order, especially when you’ve been shown a factual cite for it. I’m sorry, but that’s a pretty sketchy reason. It sounds like somebody made it up after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2014, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656/40 "2014-07-22T09:48:53Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Let’s just say that I have my reasons. And I’m sure you have your reasons for not sharing them with us. Jerk. > [@](#): > > That said, is it really that hard to envision an alphabet where H precedes G? Why so much resistance? It’s not hard to envision, but that’s not the point. Why so much resistance to telling why you think it should be so? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-h-come-before-g-in-the-alphabet/693656.md?page=3)