Why doesn't SkyNet…? (TERMINATOR QUESTION)

[Miller]

@iamthewalrus_3

That’s not really consistent with the first movie.

Reese says, of the Terminator…

That is not consistent with the idea that there are more advanced super-shapechangery models out there. It’s also not consistent with the idea that they’d managed to capture one of the Arnie models and reprogram it.

I don’t think it’s really all the inconsistent. The 600 line was the newest model that had been deployed to the battlefield. The 1000 line was the bleeding edge, completed too late to be mass produced for the war, with just a prototype available to send back after young John Connor.

As for capturing the 600 they sent back, I assumed that the facility that housed the time machine also served as a Terminator factory. The Arnie in T1 was the last one off the assembly line before Skynet was destroyed. The Arnie in T2 looks identical, because the rebels just had it duplicate the last model it had produced.

Not “Terminators” had already gone through, not sent “us” to intercept. And if the resistance knows about all the terminators sent back, and send back their protectors all at once, why does Reese not bother to mention that to Sarah? “Oh, yeah, and when John’s like 14, we’re going to send another one back to help you guys, and he’ll look just like this one. Don’t freak out when you see him! And then again a bit later.”

Well, John Connor does have a history of hiding really important facts from Kyle Reese…

It’s plausible that John is concerned about the Butterfly Effect - from his perspective in the future, he’s won, and presumably not by a wide margin. He could be worried that too much meddling in the past will change things just enough that he loses some key battle and SkyNet crushes the resistance. He knows Reese and the T-600 have to go back, because he remembers them being there (or remembers his mother talking about the first one, at least). He doesn’t remember Reese warning them about future robot attacks, and so deliberately hides that information from Reese, so the timeline stays as close to how he remembers it as possible.

Otherwise, you’d think the first thing a general who just won a bitter guerilla war would do when he got his hands on a time machine would be to send someone back with the details of every skirmish, ambush, infiltration, assassination, sabotage, arson, and vandalism I’d engaged in during the war, have him find me during one of my rare lulls between killer robot attacks, and have him drill me continuously on every military mistake I’ve ever made, and how not to make them in the future.

And, when asked how he’ll get home

I interpret that to be, “There’s no back up coming for this mission,” not necessarily, “There’s never going to be another mission like this again.” But, see above for Reese not knowing everything that’s going on back at the Time Machine.

The sequels are fun, but they’re really not consistent with the facts established in the first movie. It’s pretty hard to write airtight time travel sequels.

Just to be clear, I’m only talking about the first two movies. I’ve never seen any of the others, and wouldn’t be surprised if they (particularly Salvation) knock great big gaping holes in this idea.

[Bozuit]

@Miller

The 600 line was the newest model that had been deployed to the battlefield.

Minor nitpick: In the first two films (I’m ignoring the rest too, although I have seen #3) Arnie is a T-800.

[DWMarch]

@Miller

Just to be clear, I’m only talking about the first two movies. I’ve never seen any of the others, and wouldn’t be surprised if they (particularly Salvation) knock great big gaping holes in this idea.

I just watched Salvation again and it doesn’t address time travel at all beyond John knowing that he’s screwed if anything happens to Kyle Reese. John also mentions how the Terminators have been out to get him since before he was born. That’s it for time travel mentions in T4.

I don’t recall much time travel talk in T3 either. John is surprised that Judgment Day is still on but beyond a general sentiment of “well, this is some bullshit” he doesn’t question the mechanics of it.

[Bryan_Ekers]

Why do the terminators in Salvation suffer an obvious programming bug:

10 IDENTIFY JOHN CONNOR
20 WALK TO JOHN CONNOR
30 PICK UP JOHN CONNOR
40 GOTO 70
50 TERMINATE JOHN CONNOR
60 END
70 THROW JOHN CONNOR
80 GOTO 20

Seriously, that happens three or four times in the movie.

[shijinn]

it’s the entire franchise; without a weapon, terminators default to throwing their targets around. crushing a target’s skull with their bare hands would wake the censors.

[iamthewalrus_3]

@grude

Dialogue in the first Terminator movie from Reese explicitly establishes that Skynet was AFRAID of using the time machine and messing up its own existence. Only once it was already defeated did it use the time machine as a absolute last ditch effort(because it no longer mattered whether it erased itself or not).

Skynet was unsure and afraid of mucking up the timeline, turns out it created itself and its nemesis

I don’t recall any such dialog. Cite?

@Miller

Well, John Connor does have a history of hiding really important facts from Kyle Reese…

It’s plausible that John is concerned about the Butterfly Effect - from his perspective in the future, he’s won, and presumably not by a wide margin. He could be worried that too much meddling in the past will change things just enough that he loses some key battle and SkyNet crushes the resistance. He knows Reese and the T-600 have to go back, because he remembers them being there (or remembers his mother talking about the first one, at least). He doesn’t remember Reese warning them about future robot attacks, and so deliberately hides that information from Reese, so the timeline stays as close to how he remembers it as possible.

Otherwise, you’d think the first thing a general who just won a bitter guerilla war would do when he got his hands on a time machine would be to send someone back with the details of every skirmish, ambush, infiltration, assassination, sabotage, arson, and vandalism I’d engaged in during the war, have him find me during one of my rare lulls between killer robot attacks, and have him drill me continuously on every military mistake I’ve ever made, and how not to make them in the future.

I interpret that to be, “There’s no back up coming for this mission,” not necessarily, “There’s never going to be another mission like this again.” But, see above for Reese not knowing everything that’s going on back at the Time Machine.

That’s a reasonable interpretation. John “remembered” that he lived through the other terminator attacks without specific warning, so he didn’t need to pre-warn himself, and it’s even dangerous to do so.

I like Learjeff’s interpretation better. The Terminator movies are not all showing pieces of the same stable time loop. The movies are each showing a different alternate timeline that branches from the original timeline.

T0 (original): Sarah has a son named John, some event leads her to teach him to be hard and fend for himself. Skynet arises, nuclear war, John saves the world, sends back Reese (begin first movie).

T1: Reese fathers John, Sarah defeats Arnie terminator (most advanced Terminator model in T0), but arm/chip are left behind.

T2: Skynet arises in a more advanced state due to technology kickstart. Sends back shapechanger (most advanced model in T1 timeline) later (because it doesn’t want to risk branching earlier and killing self, Connor also has a jump on them because now he’s been specifically trained to know about Skynet/Terminators. The good guys kill Dyson and destroy all the evidence (except I bet they don’t really. A company as big as Cyberdyne doesn’t have offsite backups?).

T3: Judgment day is delayed by the events of T2, which means that when Skynet arises, it’s less a collection of robots, and more an AI that lives in the internet. Hence, networked interaction and a blend of the previous terminator designs. Etc.

I don’t remember the other movies enough to continue, but the general pattern works, and it means that the movies don’t have to be 100% consistent to still work together.

[AnthonyElite]

@iamthewalrus_3

I don’t recall any such dialog. Cite?

That’s a reasonable interpretation. John “remembered” that he lived through the other terminator attacks without specific warning, so he didn’t need to pre-warn himself, and it’s even dangerous to do so.

I like Learjeff’s interpretation better. The Terminator movies are not all showing pieces of the same stable time loop. The movies are each showing a different alternate timeline that branches from the original timeline.

T0 (original): Sarah has a son named John, some event leads her to teach him to be hard and fend for himself. Skynet arises, nuclear war, John saves the world, sends back Reese (begin first movie).

T1: Reese fathers John, Sarah defeats Arnie terminator (most advanced Terminator model in T0), but arm/chip are left behind.

T2: Skynet arises in a more advanced state due to technology kickstart. Sends back shapechanger (most advanced model in T1 timeline) later (because it doesn’t want to risk branching earlier and killing self, Connor also has a jump on them because now he’s been specifically trained to know about Skynet/Terminators. The good guys kill Dyson and destroy all the evidence (except I bet they don’t really. A company as big as Cyberdyne doesn’t have offsite backups?).

T3: Judgment day is delayed by the events of T2, which means that when Skynet arises, it’s less a collection of robots, and more an AI that lives in the internet. Hence, networked interaction and a blend of the previous terminator designs. Etc.

I don’t remember the other movies enough to continue, but the general pattern works, and it means that the movies don’t have to be 100% consistent to still work together.

I like this theory, and this is generally what I figure must have happened, except I don’t accept the idea that John is not genetically the same. He would have to have two different fathers for this to work. Unless the “ultimate leader” gene is just embedded in the mother’s side, it doesn’t seem likely. Still turning this over in my head.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@shijinn

it’s the entire franchise; without a weapon, terminators default to throwing their targets around. crushing a target’s skull with their bare hands would wake the censors.

The first termination in the series is Arnie picking a guy up and ripping his heart out.

@AnthonyElite

Unless the “ultimate leader” gene is just embedded in the mother’s side, it doesn’t seem likely. Still turning this over in my head.

Her? She can’t even balance a checkbook.

[Bozuit]

@Bryan_Ekers

The first termination in the series is Arnie picking a guy up and ripping his heart out.

If you mean “Nice night for a walk” I think it’s more just punching the guy in the torso so hard his fist goes right in. His hand is bloody afterwards but I don’t think there’s a heart.

@Bryan_Ekers

Her? She can’t even balance a checkbook.

Neither is she tough or organized. She doesn’t look like the mother of the future to me.

[dracoi]

@iamthewalrus_3

T0 (original): Sarah has a son named John, some event leads her to teach him to be hard and fend for himself. Skynet arises, nuclear war, John saves the world, sends back Reese (begin first movie).

Here’s my contribution to this one: let’s look at Sarah Connor’s choice of men. In T2, we know she had a string of totally inappropriate men, including violent criminals, drunks and abusive men. But in T1, she’s not exactly climbing the corporate ladder or courting tax accountants, is she? She has a dead-end job and falls for a violent, dysfunctional, probably insane Kyle Reese. So… it’s not such a reach to think that she’d have always sought out drunken, abusive, criminal love interests. And maybe these guys would always have taught John how to steal cars and hack ATMs.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Bozuit

If you mean “Nice night for a walk” I think it’s more just punching the guy in the torso so hard his fist goes right in. His hand is bloody afterwards but I don’t think there’s a heart.

Well, close enough for government work.

[iamthewalrus_3]

@AnthonyElite

I like this theory, and this is generally what I figure must have happened, except I don’t accept the idea that John is not genetically the same. He would have to have two different fathers for this to work. Unless the “ultimate leader” gene is just embedded in the mother’s side, it doesn’t seem likely. Still turning this over in my head.

I guess there’s a nature vs nurture argument to be made here. But clearly, whatever Sarah Connor’s abilities at the time of T1, she has the genetic capacity to become a badass and teach her kid to be a survivalist, because she does so after the events of T1.

Is there an event other than a time traveling machine trying to kill you that would kick your ass out of a semi-comfortable waitressing life into hardscrabble survivalist? Sure, plenty.

The thing I dislike the most about T3 is that John Connor is shown to be a loser and a loner, rather than a leader of men. I want to see him agitating a Central American quasi-revolutionary luddite group or deep in the survivalist movement, not skulking around the suburbs and refusing to accept responsibility for anything. They got it right in T2. Eddie Furlong was a surly adolescent scofflaw, but he inspired loyalty and wasn’t afraid to make gutsy moves.

[Bozuit]

@iamthewalrus_3

The thing I dislike the most about T3 is that John Connor is shown to be a loser and a loner, rather than a leader of men. I want to see him agitating a Central American quasi-revolutionary luddite group or deep in the survivalist movement, not skulking around the suburbs and refusing to accept responsibility for anything. They got it right in T2. Eddie Furlong was a surly adolescent scofflaw, but he inspired loyalty and wasn’t afraid to make gutsy moves.

This is why it’s best to stick with the first two. I hadn’t thought about that, but you’re right. It’s almost inconceivable that he would be that useless at that point. He looks to me like someone with no ideas or hopes for his future, and certainly no self-esteem. The real John Connor knows he can’t look forward to a nice, comfortable life with a well-paying job, but what he knows about his future is bigger than anything anyone else in the world can even guess. And he’s the fucking One. He’s Neo. He’s John Connor MacLeod! Maybe he can find a way to convince some people he’s not crazy, build nuclear shelters, stock up on potassium iodide, supplies, acquire weapons capable of destroying Terminators… EMPs? And train! Even sabotage Skynet, however indirectly. Find ways to slow its development. Destroy labs. Create viruses. Write strongly-worded letters to elected officials urging them to oppose funding for nerdy robotics projects.

I dunno. Take up running, at least.

[DWMarch]

@iamthewalrus_3

The thing I dislike the most about T3 is that John Connor is shown to be a loser and a loner, rather than a leader of men. I want to see him agitating a Central American quasi-revolutionary luddite group or deep in the survivalist movement, not skulking around the suburbs and refusing to accept responsibility for anything. They got it right in T2. Eddie Furlong was a surly adolescent scofflaw, but he inspired loyalty and wasn’t afraid to make gutsy moves.

In all fairness to T3’s John, he goes through the movie after a bad motorcycle accident for which he treats himself using horse tranquilizers. He also discovers that the world is about to end that same day.

And although this wasn’t explored much in the movies, it’s been shown that people around John Connor have a tendency to be killed. I can see him not wanting to expose anyone to danger by setting down roots in any given community. This was explored on the show- the Terminators found John almost immediately as soon as he had a fixed address.

However, I agree a tough but flexible John Connor would be a great step up from how he’s been presented thus far. On the show I was hoping they’d show him to be the kid who got along with all the different social groups, cliques, races, clubs, gangs, et cetera. No matter what the differences, JC could pull them together for a common cause. Instead, John only ever had one friend at a time and they were mostly from the future.

[oft_wears_hats]

@iamthewalrus_3

The thing I dislike the most about T3 is that John Connor is shown to be a loser and a loner, rather than a leader of men. I want to see him agitating a Central American quasi-revolutionary luddite group or deep in the survivalist movement, not skulking around the suburbs and refusing to accept responsibility for anything. They got it right in T2. Eddie Furlong was a surly adolescent scofflaw, but he inspired loyalty and wasn’t afraid to make gutsy moves.

@DWMarch

In all fairness to T3’s John, he goes through the movie after a bad motorcycle accident for which he treats himself using horse tranquilizers. He also discovers that the world is about to end that same day.

And although this wasn’t explored much in the movies, it’s been shown that people around John Connor have a tendency to be killed. I can see him not wanting to expose anyone to danger by setting down roots in any given community. This was explored on the show- the Terminators found John almost immediately as soon as he had a fixed address.

However, I agree a tough but flexible John Connor would be a great step up from how he’s been presented thus far. On the show I was hoping they’d show him to be the kid who got along with all the different social groups, cliques, races, clubs, gangs, et cetera. No matter what the differences, JC could pull them together for a common cause. Instead, John only ever had one friend at a time and they were mostly from the future.

These are really, really good points, but the (post-T2) series does have a bit of a “you can alter some things, but you can’t beat fate” thesis. In T3, the T-800 mentions that the events of T2 simply delayed, not averted, Judgment Day. It’s believable to me that John’s emotional rollercoaster in T2 (finding and losing his ideal father figure), also changed him fundamentally, explaining his distrust and despair in T3. That was something that changed, and it took him being flung onto Judgment Day’s very doorstep to snap him out of that funk and become who he was meant to be. John could reject the Hero’s Call if he wanted, but Judgment Day literally could not happen without him also finally taking up his fated role. John had to end up stuck in a bunker, with the nukes already in the air, Skynet awakened, and besieged military begging him for help over the radio before he finally accepted that he was humanity’s savior.

Still, the series should have ended with T2.

[mlees]

John also spent his formative years (in between movies 2 and 3) trying to hide, leaving no trail for another Terminator (if another gets sent) to track him down. Becoming some heroic figure too early would tend to get him noticed. These habits of trying to remain “off the ‘net’” may have become ingrained into his personality, making him appear meeker than one hopes for in a hero.

Also, with Judgement Day not happening “on schedule”, it’s possible John may have begun to be unsure what to do with himself now. He spends a decade hiding off the net, and it becomes second nature. The expected Judgement Day date comes and goes, and John sorta coasts on, sticking to his old lifestyle habits, essentially still “waiting” for life to happen to him.

[Justin_Bailey]

@iamthewalrus_3

The thing I dislike the most about T3 is that John Connor is shown to be a loser and a loner, rather than a leader of men. I want to see him agitating a Central American quasi-revolutionary luddite group or deep in the survivalist movement, not skulking around the suburbs and refusing to accept responsibility for anything. They got it right in T2. Eddie Furlong was a surly adolescent scofflaw, but he inspired loyalty and wasn’t afraid to make gutsy moves.

But they explain why John Connor is so aimless in T3. After Judgment Day came and went, and his mother died of cancer, he didn’t know what his purpose in life was anymore. He didn’t need to be “John Connor, Leader of the Resistance and Last Best Hope for Humanity.” But he didn’t know how to be anything else. But he was still afraid of a future that would still come, so he stayed off the grid. And if you remember, as soon as Arnie threatens to kill him because he’s acting like a baby, he straightens up and becomes “John Connor, Leader” right then and there.