# Why doesn't the death penalty deter crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600 "2014-12-18T19:24:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/21 "2014-12-18T21:27:42Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Ah?..Who? I don’t know about thousands (Du Pont in Bhopal, maybe?), but he may be thinking about [The Ford Pinto](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto#Allegations_and_lawsuits), which allegedly was known to have a defect that would result in fiery death and was still not fixed. Looking at Wikipedia, it was apparently not so clear-cut. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/22 "2014-12-18T21:30:47Z")
> [@XT](#): > > All I could find on this was an [old news paper clip](http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1876&dat=19761217&id=4XosAAAAIBAJ&sjid=W8wEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3035,4033565) saying it’s a wives tale. How often was it actually punished by death? Because I have to think that the English weren’t punishing every pickpocket caught by death. 😛 How about the [BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8181192.stm): > [@](#): > > The infamous system in England and Wales, which relied on its strong deterrent qualities, was dubbed the “Bloody Code” for good reason. > Executions were public spectacles, with the wealthy hiring balconies to get better views, and it did not take much to book yourself a spot at the gallows. > Being in the company of gypsies for a month, damaging Westminster Bridge, cutting down trees, stealing livestock - or anything worth more than five shillings (£30 today) for that matter - would do it. > > The death sentence also applied to pickpockets, the destruction of turnpike roads, general poaching, stealing from a shipwreck and being out at night with a blackened face, which made people assume you were a burglar. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/23 "2014-12-18T21:49:52Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > How about the [BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8181192.stm): Ok, so according to your cite here out of 1.4 million crimes that COULD bring the death penalty, 10k actually did. Admittedly, that’s pretty freaking high (ironic when people from England, Wales or Scotland talk about the US death penalty :p), but I’m not seeing the deterrent factor for pickpockets in the crowd watching a public execution, though I guess it does make a certain sense. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/24 "2014-12-18T21:55:43Z")
It’s a punishment. A consequence for an action. Period. Exactly what violation of law, whether minor or major, have we as a society ever deterred? I can’t think of one crime that never happens because of the consequences of committing it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/25 "2014-12-18T22:03:26Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Exactly what violation of law, whether minor or major, have we as a society ever deterred? I can’t think of one crime that never happens because of the consequences of committing it. I once had a student tell me that the only thing keeping him from punching me was that he’d get in trouble, so there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/26 "2014-12-18T22:08:10Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I once had a student tell me that the only thing keeping him from punching me was that he’d get in trouble, so there’s that. That’s an individual example. People get punched all the time. I’m talking as a whole. Can you show me a statistic that there is a law (ordinance violation, misdemeanor, felony) that is never broken by anyone? ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/27 "2014-12-18T22:14:20Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > It’s a punishment. A consequence for an action. Period. > > Exactly what violation of law, whether minor or major, have we as a society ever deterred? I can’t think of one crime that never happens because of the consequences of committing it. Deter doesn’t mean 100% prevention - plenty of laws have some sort of effect on behavior - they don’t even have to be laws - changing the 1040 to require SSNs to be able to count dependents led to millions of peoples dependents going off the tax roles. But that isn’t what we are talking about here - IMHO the question really is - does anyone really think “I want that fucker dead - but I don’t want to get the death penalty, but I’m ok with life in prison”? I don’t think many do. Of course some could argue it has more subtle effects, but you can argue the reverse too - if the government thinks killing is ok in some cases - maybe if Steve is a really BIG dick - he deserves to die. I agree with the - it’s hard to decide thing - posted above. You can Cherry Pick stats, and say that the death penalty doesn’t deter people, but I’m gonna go out on a limb and suggest that the areas where the death penalty are carried out have poor social services that lead to more crime - and you’ll never know for sure. I don’t know the answer - my guess is in a vacuum it probably doesn’t make much of a difference, but it isn’t in a vacuum - and those areas that use it - pat themselves on the back and say they are being tough on crime rather than making real reforms. So I think it is harmful. Can I prove it? No ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/28 "2014-12-18T22:25:17Z")
> [@leftfield6](#): > > Simple answer is, it doesn’t deter the criminal action because the soon-to-be criminal does not think he/she will be caught, thus any subsequent penalty is not top of mind. Pretty much this. If a would be murderer were to do a cost benefit analysis regarding his actions that took into account punishment, and prospect of life in prison isn’t enough deterrent to over shadow the benefits of committing the murder, than it is unlikely that the possibility of execution would be either. ETA: or what DataX said. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/29 "2014-12-18T22:29:47Z")
Maybe we should abolish incarceration. It doesn’t deter crime. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/30 "2014-12-18T22:36:46Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Maybe we should abolish incarceration. It doesn’t deter crime. Thank you for the inevitable silly extreme that adds nothing to the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/31 "2014-12-18T22:39:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Thank you for the inevitable silly extreme that adds nothing to the conversation. Honestly, you can’t have it both ways…either imprisonment (and execution presumably) deters some non-zero amount of crime or it doesn’t. Personally, I think of imprisonment as a punishment and to get people who commit crimes out of public circulation. I think that one can be opposed to the death penalty on most structural or rational grounds and think that it does in fact have a deterrent effect, though just like for other crimes it’s not 100% since the actors aren’t always rational. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/32 "2014-12-18T23:01:45Z")
> [@XT](#): > > All I could find on this was an [old news paper clip](http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1876&dat=19761217&id=4XosAAAAIBAJ&sjid=W8wEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3035,4033565) saying it’s a wives tale. How often was it actually punished by death? Because I have to think that the English weren’t punishing every pickpocket caught by death. 😛 One of my ancestors was sentenced to death at the age of 14 for [shoplifting two handkerchiefs.](http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?ref=t18260511-20) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/33 "2014-12-18T23:04:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Maybe we should abolish incarceration. It doesn’t deter crime. Actually a good idea when the crime is something like smoking dope which has little if any negative impact on society. Jail certainly hasn’t deterred its use - and we see states doing away with jail time for it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2014, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/34 "2014-12-18T23:07:10Z")
Besides the other good points made, lots of murders are crimes of passion. Someone in a blind rage about a SO cheating is not going to go “wait - I had better tone it down.” Plus, lots of murderers aren’t the brightest candles in the Menorah. I’m guessing they won’t be making these calculations. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/35 "2014-12-19T00:11:29Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Besides the other good points made, lots of murders are crimes of passion. Someone in a blind rage about a SO cheating is not going to go “wait - I had better tone it down.” > Plus, lots of murderers aren’t the brightest candles in the Menorah. I’m guessing they won’t be making these calculations. I believe in most states, though, the death penalty is used for only for first degree murder – premeditated. A crime of passion would be considered second degree, wouldn’t it? (Note: I’m anti-death penalty. I’m simply asking a question) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/36 "2014-12-19T00:32:14Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I believe in most states, though, the death penalty is used for only for first degree murder – premeditated. A crime of passion would be considered second degree, wouldn’t it? > (Note: I’m anti-death penalty. I’m simply asking a question) That’s true - but it is possible for a DA to look for evidence that the tools for the murder were bought in advance, since it is hard to know for sure how premeditated a murder is. Scott Trurow, who was on the Illinois panel, noted that prosecutors sometimes jacked up the charge as much as possible in order to plea bargain. Which hurt the truly innocent who didn’t want to serve a lesser term for something they didn’t do. Anyhow passion need not be spur of the moment. See a whole bunch of blues songs. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/37 "2014-12-19T00:36:33Z")
> [@XT](#): > > I think that one can be opposed to the death penalty on most structural or rational grounds and think that it does in fact have a deterrent effect, though just like for other crimes it’s not 100% since the actors aren’t always rational. Given the magnitude of the crime, I’d suspect that fewer murderers act rationally compared to other crimes - like knocking over a bank or crashing the world financial system. The exception would be hit men, of course. I’ve been up for the jury for two murder cases - one a guy who killed a woman during a rape (which was a death penalty case) and the other a guy who killed someone during a street robbery, which wasn’t. I doubt either killer was all that rational, though luckily I didn’t get picked. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/38 "2014-12-19T00:47:51Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Also, AFAIK the death penalty is **always** avoidable if someone prefers the idea of life imprisonment (or lengthy imprisonment, at any rate), because my understanding is that the DP is never applied if the perp pleads guilty or seeks a plea bargain. This is pretty much the system’s tacit admission that the DP isn’t a deterrent. I believe this is true, but can this be validated? I also assume that if someone admits to the crime, they are not executed. If this is the case, then it pretty much supports the idea that encarceration is for punishment and removing bad people from general circulation (as **XT** stated), not crime prevention. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/39 "2014-12-19T01:49:38Z")
Now is the time on _Sprockets_ when we dance! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/40 "2014-12-19T02:11:26Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > This. Also, AFAIK the death penalty is **always** avoidable if someone prefers the idea of life imprisonment (or lengthy imprisonment, at any rate), because my understanding is that the DP is never applied if the perp pleads guilty or seeks a plea bargain. This is pretty much the system’s tacit admission that the DP isn’t a deterrent. This surprises me. I seem to recall cases such as the Boston Marathon Bomber and the DC sniper where prosecutors announced their intention to seek the death penalty within days of catching the perp. Is there any evidence to support this claim? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600.md?page=3)