# Why doesn't the death penalty deter crime? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2014, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600 "2014-12-18T19:24:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/41 "2014-12-19T04:50:45Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Honestly, you can’t have it both ways…either imprisonment (and execution presumably) deters some non-zero amount of crime or it doesn’t. Personally, I think of imprisonment as a punishment and to get people who commit crimes out of public circulation. > > I think that one can be opposed to the death penalty on most structural or rational grounds and think that it does in fact have a deterrent effect, though just like for other crimes it’s not 100% since the actors aren’t always rational. Likewise, you can be for the death penalty and _not_ think it has a deterrent effect (you might be for it on other grounds). ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/42 "2014-12-19T05:07:47Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Pretty much this. If a would be murderer were to do a cost benefit analysis regarding his actions that took into account punishment, and prospect of life in prison isn’t enough deterrent to over shadow the benefits of committing the murder, than it is unlikely that the possibility of execution would be either. > > ETA: or what DataX said. In other words, beyond a point, the punishment is so severe that anyone who can reasonably be deterred already will be. For example, if you replaced execution by lethal injection with execution by slow slicing, it’s quite possible that you wouldn’t see any increased deterrent effect, even though the latter is objectively a worse punishment than the former. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/43 "2014-12-19T05:52:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I don’t know about thousands (Du Pont in Bhopal, maybe?), That was Union Carbide, not Du Pont. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/44 "2014-12-19T11:01:50Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Honestly, you can’t have it both ways…either imprisonment (and execution presumably) deters some non-zero amount of crime or it doesn’t. Personally, I think of imprisonment as a punishment and to get people who commit crimes out of public circulation. > . I think you can have it both way. That imprisonment deters people doesn’t mean that using a harsher sentence, or just a longer sentence will necessarily deter more people. Most crime aren’t “worth” even a short jail sentence. As I wrote in the other thread, if 10 years in jail doesn’t deter you from commiting a crime, in most cases it means that you’re not acting rationally, or think you won’t be caught, etc…Adding more to the sentence won’t help with this state of mind. You’ll begin to be frightened about the sentence _after_you’ve commited the crime and are actually facing the sentence. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/45 "2014-12-19T20:05:38Z")
Take a look at the mental health of offenders, and their educational levels and their social skills. There is so much material about these things, all peer reviewed you just will not have any problem finding it, and I have posted links to such information on these boards many times, I kind of get fed up doing it. Prisoners do not believe they will get caught, even those who plan their offences up to and including murder, yet they have the evidence right in front of them, because prisons are stuffed full with them, and they have usually been in and out of prison over many years. Although you cannot be specific with any individual criminal, you can draw some generalisations which are striking, crime is a younger mans game - you just do not see the numbers of aged prisoners inside, and certainly not when you compare it to the general population. Prisoners tend to leave education much earlier than their peers, and instead take up offending. Their social and academic development is very much lower then the general population. Prisoners are terrible at planning, or selecting choices and alternative options, they tend to have concrete thinking. Prisoners are generally under 35, they are usually well sick of prison and the rotating door syndrome long before that, in fact time is generally the one thing most likely to dissuade a prisoner from crime. Yes, it really does take 20 years or so to persuade a criminal that they will be caught and the chances are high enough not to ignore. Pre-planned murder is very much a minority of murder in the UK, most of it is anger - pride - and events that went further than intended. DP is not much of a deterrent for such non-repeat events. If you want DP as a punishment, then that’s for your nation to debate - its a valid debate to have - but don’t dress it up as anything more than that. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/46 "2014-12-19T20:46:13Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Honestly, you can’t have it both ways…either imprisonment (and execution presumably) deters some non-zero amount of crime or it doesn’t. Personally, I think of imprisonment as a punishment and to get people who commit crimes out of public circulation. Fine. Let’s use accurate terminology. Every form of punishment acts as a deterrent. Imprisonment deters some people , death deters some people who would otherwise consider committing a crime. Here is the thing: The deterrent factor of the death penalty is \*no greater than \*life imprisonment. \*That \*is what is meant when people say it isn’t a deterrent. But I think you knew that already. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/47 "2014-12-19T20:55:25Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > One of my ancestors was sentenced to death at the age of 14 for [shoplifting two handkerchiefs.](http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?ref=t18260511-20) What was the result? Was the sentence commuted/ overturned? Or had he already produced children at age 14? ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/48 "2014-12-19T22:25:57Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > This. Also, AFAIK the death penalty is **always** avoidable if someone prefers the idea of life imprisonment (or lengthy imprisonment, at any rate), because my understanding is that the DP is never applied if the perp pleads guilty or seeks a plea bargain. This is pretty much the system’s tacit admission that the DP isn’t a deterrent. It isn’t always avoidable. I’ve been involved in two death penalty cases where the prosecution declined to make an offer of life imprisonment, so the only option for the defendant was to either plead to the death penalty or take his chances with a trial. In each instance, they took their chances with a trial, and both were convicted of the death penalty. Prosecutors do this when their cases are slam dunks and they would be excoriated for getting anything **less** than the death penalty. The decision to decline to offer can be motivated entirely by politics. With respect to whether the death penalty deters crime, I can share this: In the large number of felony criminal assault cases I did, I never heard a defendant say, “Well, I was going to kill him, but then it occurred to me I might get the death penalty for it, so I punched him in the nose instead.” Not once, nor any variation thereof. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/49 "2014-12-19T23:16:10Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > What was the result? Was the sentence commuted/ overturned? Or had he already produced children at age 14? His sentence was commuted to imprisonment in the hulks at Camden Yard, a fleet of decommissioned ships that housed prisoners. We have a letter he wrote while imprisoned in which he sounds like he wished he were dead. At some point he was released, because he died in his forties under unknown circumstances. It is my understanding he was not a direct ancestor, but a brother of a direct ancestor. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/50 "2014-12-19T23:29:40Z")
Thanks, very interesting. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/51 "2014-12-19T23:39:09Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Honestly, you can’t have it both ways…either imprisonment (and execution presumably) deters some non-zero amount of crime or it doesn’t. Personally, I think of imprisonment as a punishment and to get people who commit crimes out of public circulation. The dynamics of negative reinforcement do not realistically support the criminal justice system. The individual engages in activities that are known to not lead to negative effects, as in not touching a red burner on the stove. Immediate results are more significant than delayed or variable results. The behavior the leads to criminal justice is not the actual crime itself but the part about getting caught. So, wily criminals do not avoid misbehavior, they engage in misbehaviors calculated to avoid getting caught. Whatever the punishment might be, it is of no value if the criminal gets away with their deeds. Hence, the value of imprisonment (or execution, for that matter) as a punishment is questionable at best. If its application is seen to be arbitrary (i.e., random-ish) or targeted (toward some specific sector or class, or political enemies), its validity is even further diminished. In a few cases, an individual probably does need to be securely isolated from society, but we might not agree on the same group of people (e.g., vulture capitalists). For those who can return to society, the punishment factor of prison is actually counter-productive, for those people we ought to transition them from the initial cat-o-nine-tails wing on to the library wing, where they can work toward becoming stable and valuable private citizens. As far as snuffing the really bad guys, I feel more like if you want to punish them, make them stare forlornly at bars and cold concrete until time gradually saps them of their strength and their last breath. Execution seems more like an act of mercy compared to that. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/52 "2014-12-19T23:51:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This surprises me. I seem to recall cases such as the Boston Marathon Bomber and the DC sniper where prosecutors announced their intention to seek the death penalty within days of catching the perp. Is there any evidence to support this claim? There is no question that prosecutors announce their intention to seek the death penalty. For cases like these it is politically expedient, and is clearly used as a bargaining chip. The question is whether the death penalty is ever used in recent cases after a guilty plea. I can’t think of one. ETA: In fact this is almost provably not true. There is no reason for a person in a death penalty case to plead guilty unless there is a bargain for a lesser punishment. What does he have to lose in going to trial? ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/53 "2014-12-20T00:03:18Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > There is no reason for a person in a death penalty case to plead guilty unless there is a bargain for a lesser punishment. What does he have to lose in going to trial? Obviously a guilty plea closes off a lot of avenues for appeal. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/54 "2014-12-20T16:03:33Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > The death penalty deters the person that is executed from killing again. It’s not just murder. Studies have shown recidivism among those executed is extremely rare regardless of the crime. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/55 "2014-12-28T23:30:45Z")
Back in the early '80s I wrote a term paper on capital punishment, for a philosophy course I was taking at university at the time. Prior to the paper I was in favour of capital punishment. My research (sorry I no longer have the paper or the references) revealed, according to a UK study, that most murders were literally “crimes of passion” committed by people who were, in all other respects, law abiding citizens and were model prisoners who would never offend again. As such, they were not doing some cost-benefit analysis prior to killing someone. It simplistic terms, the murder “just happened” in the heat of the moment so that a deterrent effect would not exist. That, plus other issues, such as the wrongfully convicted etc, turned me against the death penalty. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/56 "2014-12-28T23:44:54Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > My research (sorry I no longer have the paper or the references) revealed, according to a UK study, that most murders were literally “crimes of passion” committed by people who were, in all other respects, law abiding citizens and were model prisoners who would never offend again. As such, they were not doing some cost-benefit analysis prior to killing someone. It simplistic terms, the murder “just happened” in the heat of the moment so that a deterrent effect would not exist. UK study? Study of where? The UK? Europe? USA? World? I’ve observed that most of the people executed in the USA were not “law abiding citizens …who would never offend again” but huge shitbags with long records of shitbagginess. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/57 "2014-12-29T00:33:16Z")
“UK study? Study of where? The UK? Europe? USA? World?” I should have been clearer - UK study of UK. As I said, I don’t have 30 year old references. Regarding your experience of “huge shitbags with long records of shitbagginess”, is that based on research or what’s reported in the media? (no snark intended:)" ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/58 "2014-12-29T03:43:46Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > Regarding your experience of “huge shitbags with long records of shitbagginess”, is that based on research or what’s reported in the media? (no snark intended:)" Both. When someone get’s injected I’ll look up what their past was. I’ve yet to see anyone who feel into the “law abiding citizen …who would never offend again” category. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/59 "2014-12-29T17:21:05Z")
> [@InfiniteJest](#): > > So: > > 1. Does the DP deter crime? > > 2. If not, why not? In the case of the accused, it is 100% effective in preventing future crimes. The problem is that the system gets gamed, badly. I don’t think there is a person in this country who is unaware that if you get the death penalty, you can play games with the legal system and drag it out for decades. Here’s a revision I would like to see happen. Don’t know if it ever will or not, but still… Increase the size of SCOTUS to 12 justices. 9 of them still sit as the regular SCOTUS, 3 of them are a death penalty tribunal, and a justice cannot serve two consecutive sessions on the tribunal. If someone is convicted in state court, it gets automatically appealed to the highest state appellate court. If the conviction is upheld there, it goes directly to the tribunal, bypassing the lower federal court system. If they uphold the conviction, that’s it. Sentence carried out within 10 days. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600/60 "2014-12-29T17:43:04Z")
And I suppose the fact that many people have been proved innocent several YEARS after the death sentence doesn’t bother you? They only survived because of those years-long delay. If the sentence had been carried out within 10 days, they would all be dead. Does that make a difference to your plan? Also, “the Constitution does not appear to authorize two or more Supreme Courts functioning in effect as separate courts.” > **[Article Three of the United States Constitution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Three_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Number_of_courts)** > > Article Three of the United States Constitution establishes the judicial branch of the U.S. federal government. Under Article Three, the judicial branch consists of the Supreme Court of the United States, as well as lower courts created by Congress. Article Three empowers the courts to handle cases or controversies arising under federal law, as well as other enumerated areas. Article Three also defines treason. > Section 1 of Article Three vests the judicial power of the United States in the Su... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-death-penalty-deter-crime/707600.md?page=4)