Not surprisingly, you didn’t answer the question. Since your question is speculative in nature as you have not shown in any serious way that the death penalty does** in fact** act as a deterrent, you’re also attempting to create a false equivalency between the two issues. I won’t answer a question that is nothing more than an attempt at deflection.
This isn’t a sensible response, because there is a major moral difference between killing and letting die. It makes sense to be more scrupulous about whom we actually execute, than about potential future victims of a higher murder rate, because we aren’t actually murdering those people.
Since I have never claimed that the “death penalty does** in fact** act as a deterrent” why should I attempt to show that?
:dubious:
You ask a loaded question, you get a loaded question back. The fact that you are unwilling to answer it shows that your question wasn’t worth answering either.
Sorry, but that’s simply untrue. It has been shown definitively that we have** in fact** executed innocent people as a result of having the death penalty. It has not been shown in fact that the death penalty acts as a deterrent to people committing murder. Since your question was predicated upon the second factual situation being true – “Tell me, how many innocents are you willing to sacrifice so that the DP is ended?” – it is incumbent upon you to show the nexus. Do you see now how one question is not like the other?
As for my question being “loaded,” you can see by Hector_St_Clare’s reply to same, it wasn’t. He expressed an honest reply. You did not.
Since I have never claimed that the "death penalty does in fact act as a deterrent", my question could** not** be predicated upon that theory.
You seem confused who you are debating. Perhaps caused by not reading my posts or not reading the whole thread or confusing posters.
I claimed that Murderers who have been sentenced to Life In Prison have still killed again, and if they were instead executed they would not have been able to kill again. Do you dispute* that* fact?
Your “innocents” question was not clear. Thank you for clarifying.
Yes, murderers who have been sentenced to LWOP have still killed again, now and then. Most of those were never subject to the death penalty in the first place for their underlying offense, not having met the threshold requirements for it. So what was your point, again? Are you saying that anyone who is a murderer should face the death penalty, in case they might murder another inmate or a guard? And are you further saying that the “collateral damage” issue I raised – which you didn’t answer – is not a legitimate question for consideration in debating the effectiveness of the death penalty as a deterrent?
None of that. Why not read my posts?
"* There are those who are so depraved or callous that they will kill again. Imprisonment doesnt stop them, they can kill other prisoners (and do bad-check writers deserve to die?), guards, or arrange killings from their cell. They can also escape or be wrongfully let out.
Executing the Ted Bundys are the one sure way of preventing them from killing again- which they will certainly do.
Of course, that level of dedicated repeat killer is rare. I would have the DP be very rare, like in CA- certainly not like in Texas where it is promoted to enhance a Governors chance at being elected President.*"
Of course the DP isnt much of a deterrence*. Crimes are either “of passion” in which case they arent thinking rationally, or premeditated in which case they dont think they will get caught. Thus, no punishment is a significant “deterrence”* (Knowing that you will get caught is the deterrence) . Does that mean we discontinue all punishment?
No, since imprisonment does sometimes serve to rehabilitate (“I did get caught, and this place is so horrible I never want to go back!”) but also to stop them from doing more crime.
Also, once a criminal has been caught, and realizes that he’s not so smart after all, they will do a LOT to prevent the worst sorts of punishment - including cooperating etc. The* threat* of the DP does occasionally serve to get a killer to roll over on his confederate or the guys who hired him.
I think, by and large the modern American legal system works- if we let it. Innocent men are not executed- if somehow convicted the truth seems to almost always come out before they are executed. The issue is when crime and punishment is politicized, like in Texas, where (IMHO) a innocent man was executed simply to make the Governor look better as a Presidential candidate.
To prevent innocent men from being executed can be done- make it take time, get rid of politics during the process, and only allow the worst of the worst repeat killers to face it. It’s possible for a man to be wrongfully convicted- but twice?
- I say “isnt much of” and “significant” as there are doubtless a few isolated cases.
Ah, well there we go, there does not sem to be much evidence to support that notion. Some of us doubt that it has, does or ever will.
You do know that Bundy escaped from custody, twice, and the second time murdered three women (along with several other assaults), don’t you?
Since his execution - not so much.
Regards,
Shodan
Oh, I read them and I think I took your main points.
Except Ted Bundy didn’t kill anyone else once he was imprisoned after his escapes, and the time between his continuous imprisonment and his execution was 11 years after his imprisonment in 1978. So when you say “Executing the Ted Bundys are the one sure way of preventing them from killing again- which they will certainly do,” I don’t think it is so certain at all that they will kill again. It is certainly untrue in the majority of cases. There are many murderers on death row who never kill anyone again.
As to** Shodan’s** point re the Bundy escapes, bear in mind that Bundy was facing charges during those escapes – meaning he was not yet convicted or imprisoned, only held at local facilities. It’s a world of difference to escape from a state prison than to escape from a county jail.
One could make the argument that prison guards – much like policemen – make a choice to work in a known dangerous field. They voluntarily assume that risk.
You won’t find many bad check writers in prison. Jail, yes. Prison, no.
As for ordering killings from prison, you’ll have to cite me to some statistics to show the frequency of this. I don’t think it is a common occurrence.
While you’re checking out stats, I’d love to know how many LWOP prisoners have escaped over, say, the last 30 years, who killed again. Not many, I’d wager. Maybe none.
Or… we could eliminate it altogether and avoid the potential entirely. An option that is available is almost inevitably subject to abuse of one kind or another.
I’m sorry, I think you’ve been watching too much tee vee. In my personal experience, the threat of an LWOP is as persuasive as the death penalty in “flipping” a witness to testify against a confederate. Heck, I’ve even seen investigators so good they were able to get confessions out of people who didn’t even commit the crime!
In this you are wrong, and I urge you to educate yourself further. Innocent men are convicted and executed, and disturbingly, it is not as rare as you appear to believe.
Wrongful Convictions Statistics
Another point I would raise is, how would you know if someone who was wrongfully executed was innocent or not? They’re no longer around to protest their innocence or pursue evidence of it.
Lastly, bear in mind that DNA evidence is not available in all cases, contrary to popular belief. There are many cases, including some death penalty cases, where DNA evidence is spoiled or non-existent. Chain of custody issues are also of concern here.
It isn’t a question of time or effort. It’s a question of what evidence is available. Eye witness testimony is notoriously fallible, yet many a conviction has been obtained on the sole strength of it.
You further appear to be unaware – and I apologize if it is not the case – that the appeals process never again reviews the actual, underlying facts of a case once those facts have been determined at the trial court level. The only issues reviewed over the appeals process are whether or not the law was correctly applied by the court at the trial court level. Once the facts have been established at the initial trial, it is very, very difficult to get a prosecutor or a judge to work to overturn their conviction – even in the face of significant new evidence that shows otherwise. So the automatic appeals process is not the guarantee of a determination of innocence that many people feel it must be.
So I ask you again, what is an acceptable level of “collateral damage?” How many innocent people are you willing to execute to have the death penalty?
I think if we can save about 10 innocents for every wrongful death we’re doing damn good. How many innocents are you willing to let die to get rid of it? 100? 1000?
as for how many killers escaped and killed again?
http://www.wesleylowe.com/repoff.htmlDonald Dillbeck – Florida. Killed policeman in 1979. Escaped from prison in 1990, kidnapped and killed female motorist after escape. Condemned 1991.
Edward Kennedy – Florida. Killed motel clerk. Sentenced to Life. Escaped 1981. Killed policeman and male civilian after prison break. Executed 1992.
Dawud Mu’Min – Virginia. Killed cab driver in holdup. Sentenced 1973. Escaped 1988. Raped/killed woman 1988. Condemned 1989. Executed 1997.
Viva Nash – Utah/Arizona. Two terms of life for murder in Utah, 1978. Escaped in 1982. Murdered again. Condemned in Arizona, 1983.
Randy Greenawalt – Escaped from Prison in 1978, while serving a life sentence for a 1974 murder. He then murdered a family of 4 people, shotgunning them to death, including a toddler.
Norman Parker – Florida/D.C. Life term in Florida for murder, 1966. Escaped 1978. Life on another count of murder in 1979.
---------------------------------------Martsay Bolder – Missouri. Serving a sentence of life for first-degree murder in 1973. Murdered prison cellmate 1979.
Henry Brisbon, Illinois. Murdered 2 in robbery. Sentenced to 1000- 3000 years. Killed inmate in prison 1982. Sentenced to DP. Commuted by Governor Ryan.
Randolph Dial – Oklahoma. Life for murder 1986. Escaped from prison with deputy warden’s wife as kidnap victim. 1989. Still at large. Warden’s wife never found.
and there’s more. Including Ted Bundy, who escaped and killed again.
Have you any evidence that you save 10, or even one?
How many innocents are you willing to let die in order to keep it?
Just FYI, I know Wesley Lowe very well from another internet forum. He’s a liar, a troll and an idiot. He was held in contempt even by the other pro-death advocates on the forum. Any information coming from him is extremely unreliable. What he usually does is to cut & paste someone else’s arguments, claiming them as his own. Usually he’s too dumb to notice the obvious flaws and lies in his plagiarised work.
But let’s just say for argument’s sake that I accept the list as accurate. What then? What exactly are you proposing to do to avoid that happening? These cases are very rare, and its impossible to identify them in advance. Wrongful convictions for murder are somewhat more common. Greater use of the death penalty could have prevented those murders, but would also have killed a larger number of innocents.
Note I didn’t quote any of his arguments, but his list is pretty solid. After all, easy to verify.
Wrongful *convictions *maybe. Wrongful executions? Few. I can only think of one in the last couple of decades.
Go on then, verify them.
But there would be a lot more of them if you got your way.
Which one are you thinking of?
I checked out the list. I chose six names at random. Out of the six two seemed to be accurate, two had sloppy errors, and two were way off base.
*Charles Crawford – Missouri. Life term in 1965 for murder. Paroled 1990. Convicted of murder again in 1994. *
Nope. His previous convictions were for assault and rape.
*Randolph Dial – Oklahoma. Life for murder 1986. Escaped from prison with deputy warden’s wife as kidnap victim. 1989. Still at large. Warden’s wife never found. *
Wrong on all counts. Dial and wardens wife were later found living together. No kidnap, no murder, and the wife was complicit in the escape.
I dare say I’d find numerous errors like that if I went through the entire list.
What about the violent mentally ill or mentally handicapped? It’s not like they’ll get better, and it’s not like they’re going to do their lifetime sentence without being violent and problematic, so execution seems like the best thing overall for society and the prison system, and I’d argue for the inmate, if they’re not capable of understanding why’re they’re being incarcerated.
My apologies for not getting back to your response sooner. Been busy with other things.
I appreciate that you went to some trouble to concoct your list, but I think you are making my point far better than I ever could. With your links, you asserted 13 innocents having been killed, and went back much further than the 30-year limitation I suggested in order to do it. Sticking within the 30-year limitation, your links asserted 4 innocents only.
Since you are making the argument that imposing the death penalty saves hundreds of innocent lives, I think you must first show where that is actually true. So far, you haven’t.
Thanks to Peter Morris for doing more in-depth homework than I had a chance to do over the past couple of days.