# Why doesn't the Ivy League compete with other 1A schools in athletics? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 14, 2011, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606 "2011-10-14T04:21:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quintas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@Quintas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quintas)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/1 "2011-10-14T04:21:20Z")
I guess the conventional wisdom answer would be that top level athletes who could also meet the admission requirements are rare and the ivy league won’t lower their academic standards on behalf of athletics. But there are other schools, nearly ivy league in academics, that manage to have top level athletic programs. Stanford in football and Duke in basketball spring to mind. Also, does the ivy league offer athletic scholarships at all? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/2 "2011-10-14T04:28:13Z")
The Ivies are 1-A in everything but football, aren’t they? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/3 "2011-10-14T04:31:05Z")
[Fight Fiercely, Harvard.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J04FRsesBQ) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/4 "2011-10-14T04:33:31Z")
Moving to the Game Room from GQ. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/5 "2011-10-14T04:38:12Z")
> [@Quintas](#): > > Also, does the ivy league offer athletic scholarships at all? No, they don’t. Right there, you have a huge drawback. Even if you’re one of those rare guys who’s BOTH an all-state athlete AND your high school’s valedictorian, there’s not much incentive to go to an Ivy League school. Not when you could go to Stanford or Duke or Northwestern or any number of other schools that can give you almost as good an education and a scholarship besides. ---
**Author:** ![Quintas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@Quintas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quintas)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/6 "2011-10-14T04:40:11Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > No, they don’t. Right there, you have a huge drawback. Even if you’re one of those rare guys who’s BOTH an all-state athlete AND your high school’s valedictorian, there’s not much incentive to go to an Ivy League school. Not when you could go to Stanford or Duke or Northwestern or any number of other schools that can give you almost as good an education and a scholarship besides. I’d say that pretty much answers the question. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/7 "2011-10-14T04:40:54Z")
> [@Quintas](#): > > Also, does the ivy league offer athletic scholarships at all? No, they do not. All Ivy League scholarships are need based. They don’t even give out purely academic scholarships. Also, the Ivy League has been Division I-AA (FCS) since 1982, but declines to play in the Football championship tournament due to academic concerns surrounding an extended schedule necessary for the I-AA playoffs. They are the only conference that refuses to play for a national championship in football. Lastly, all Ivy League schools stick to a strict 10 game schedule, which doesn’t leave a lot of time for non conference opponents. However, they will play I-A (FBS) opponents occasionally. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/8 "2011-10-14T04:44:03Z")
Stanford coaches estimate less than 150 football players graduate high school each year that are academically eligible. Tough to field a team at that level. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/9 "2011-10-14T04:57:23Z")
[Here’s](http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/log/index.php/2010/09/18/ivy-league-petitions-ncaa?blog=2) an interesting article related to the subject. Currently, playing an Ivy League team does not count towards a FBS team’s bowl eligibility. So what’s the point in a FBS (I-A) in scheduling an Ivy League team to begin with? ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/10 "2011-10-14T14:04:22Z")
Ironically, the Ivy League is about sports. It’s a league of universities that played each other in sports. Academic achievement is mostly coincidental, but spurred by rules on athletic scholarships. I have no idea what 1-A or 1-AA even means, but I do know that all the Ivies play each other, which was the entire point. They do play other teams, but mostly local (I think). I believe the Ivy champion in basketball gets a spot in the NCAA basketball tournament, so there is always one Ivy in the March thingy. ETA: And Cornell is basically the Canada of the Ivy League. All they care about is Hockey. They make a good run at the Hockey Tournament every now and then. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/11 "2011-10-14T14:12:59Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > ETA: And Cornell is basically the Canada of the Ivy League. All they care about is Hockey. They make a good run at the Hockey Tournament every now and then. That’s true now, but when I was a kid in the early Seventies, Cornell actually had a VERY good football team. Their star running back, Ed Marinaro (yes, the future co-star of “Hill Street Blues”), nearly won the Heisman Trophy. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/12 "2011-10-14T15:44:03Z")
I don’t know why this moved as it has a reasonably objective answer. The Ivy league in football started in 1954 although the recruiting rules began earlier. In my first three years at Penn, they lost 27 consecutive games since they played a national schedule with Ivy type teams. But the answer is simple, they wanted to avoid the overemphasis on what are really pro sports overtaking the NCAA. Although it is not quite true that they don’t give athletic scholarship (my cousin attended Penn on a fencing scholarship in the 70s) you really have to be a qualified student and with a real major (my cousin majored in biology or something, but had to keep up as he was pre-med and did get into med school). The point was to maintain the ideal of the student-athlete who was student first and athlete second. But those three seasons of losing every game tells you all you need to know. They cannot compete in division I. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/13 "2011-10-14T16:55:29Z")
> [@Quintas](#): > > But there are other schools, nearly ivy league in academics, that manage to have top level athletic programs. Welcome to the NCAA Division III University Athletic Association. Brandeis University Carnegie Mellon University Case Western Reserve University Emory University New York University University of Chicago University of Rochester Washington University in St. Louis The medical researchers test the limits of athletic endurance, the engineers design the plays and the lawyers sue the other team! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/14 "2011-10-14T23:17:00Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > No, they do not. All Ivy League scholarships are need based. They don’t even give out purely academic scholarships. Reminds me about what Coach Duffy Daugherty said about the late Bubba Smith: “Scholarships at Michigan State are based on need, and I need him.” 😃 > [@](#): > > They are the only conference that refuses to play for a national championship in football. The Southwest Athletic Conference doesn’t either, because the 1-AA playoffs would interfere with the Grambling-Southern Bayou Classic, which makes them more money and has more tradition (and fewer opponents that could beat either team handily). > [@](#): > > Lastly, all Ivy League schools stick to a strict 10 game schedule, which doesn’t leave a lot of time for non conference opponents. However, they will play I-A (FBS) opponents occasionally. Not that I can remember. They don’t even play teams from the top 1-AA conferences. But it wasn’t that long ago that the Ivies were the top conference in football (well, itt was before the war, but whatever). Only in the last couple of decades have they become too expensive for an ordinary family who wants Biff to have a nice degree and lots of connections for when he’s done playing. Harvard has a top-level hockey program, btw. They were even NCAA champs a couple of years ago. ---
**Author:** ![bmoak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@bmoak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bmoak)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/15 "2011-10-15T00:56:46Z")
The Ivies play Division 1 in ice hockey. The ECAC is not the strongest conference, but Cornell and Harvard are usually pretty strong teams, and Yale, Dartmouth, Brown, and Princeton have sent enough players on to the NHL over the years. I think Columbia and Penn are the only Ivy League schools that don’t play top-level hockey. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/16 "2011-10-15T03:57:35Z")
Penn’s men’s basketball team isn’t great, but they’re competitive most years. And don’t forget that Joe Heismann was a Penn player way back when. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/17 "2011-10-15T04:37:18Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Penn’s men’s basketball team isn’t great, but they’re competitive most years. And don’t forget that Joe Heismann was a Penn player way back when. I seem to remember Penn actually making the Final Four when I was in high school (late Seventies) ---
**Author:** ![R.P.McMurphy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@R.P.McMurphy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R.P.McMurphy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/18 "2011-10-16T04:07:39Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I seem to remember Penn actually making the Final Four when I was in high school (late Seventies) Penn made the NCAA Final Four in 1979. Unfortunately for them their opponent was Michigan State, who’s marque player was the legendary Magic Johnson. Let’s just say it wasn’t a very competitive game. (Indiana State or DePaul would have had no problem with them.) ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/19 "2011-10-17T14:38:51Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Not when you could go to Stanford or Duke or Northwestern or any number of other schools that can give you almost as good an education and a scholarship besides. Better education, actually. If you are a budding engineering, math, or science major, a degree from Stanford or Duke (or Vandy or Rice or or Illinois or Cal or Northwestern) will serve you better for getting an actual job. Maybe it’s different in liberal arts or the humanities? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606/20 "2011-10-18T20:58:49Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > I have no idea what 1-A or 1-AA even means… I think it means prestigeous private universities with mediocre football teams that have long-standing heated rivalries no one outside the school cares about.😉 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-doesnt-the-ivy-league-compete-with-other-1a-schools-in-athletics/599606.md?page=2)