# Why don’t helicopters have black boxes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 29, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185 "2020-01-29T19:56:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/1 "2020-01-29T19:56:15Z")
Whatever you think about Stephen Colbert, he occasionally speaks eloquently on serious topics. After a moving acknowledgment of Kobe Bryant, he went into an appeal to add flight recorders to helicopters. His argument was based on his personal history as well as that of a pilot friend. Both lost family members in a plane accident in foggy conditions. Colbert Sr.’s accident led to increased safety rules for airplane cockpits. It was argued helicopters don’t usually have black boxes. This apparently leads to a lot of uncertainty after accidents, and makes establishing safer colters and conditions more difficult since fault may be difficult to ascertain. Is it true? If so, why? Surely other groups share this concern? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/2 "2020-01-29T20:15:51Z")
Did Colbert note any research data to back up his views? It certainly requires careful analysis rather than just an emotional reaction that it’s always worth spending more money to increase safety. Things often aren’t that simple. It’s not obvious to me that there’s necessarily that much uncertainty about helicopter accidents. The Kobe crash will almost certainly turn out to be pilot error, with the most significant contributing risk factor likely to be excessive pressure to complete flights as quickly as possible for important clients in marginal conditions. These pressures are much greater in _ad hoc_ private charters. Since it costs money to install and maintain a black box, could that money be better spent elsewhere? For example, on better avionics that might prevent an accident in the first place. Or on education and training. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/3 "2020-01-29T20:16:17Z")
If you didn’t see it, the conversation between Stephen Colbert and Jon Batiste, the bandleader on his show, is on YouTube [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1IX-MF82SI). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/4 "2020-01-29T20:17:59Z")
[Apparently, the NTSB has been urging the FAA to require them for quite some time.](https://www.claimsjournal.com/news/national/2019/06/19/291543.htm) To no avail, unfortunately. Maybe now that a celebrity has been killed in a chopper crash, the FAA can be pressured (via public sentiment) to sit up and take notice. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/5 "2020-01-29T20:18:39Z")
Probably for the same reason lots of other small aircraft don’t - they generally don’t fall within the regulations: > [@wikipedia](#): > > [[Flight recorder - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_recorder#Regulation)](Flight\_recorder Regulation) > From 2014 the United States requires flight data recorders and cockpit voice recorders on aircraft that have 20 or more passenger seats, or those that have six or more passenger seats, are turbine-powered, and require two pilots. Given that the **Sikorsky\_S-76C** has the following spec Crew: two - Can operate with just a pilot in VFR conditions and in IFR when suitably equipped Capacity: 13 passengers … Powerplant: 2 × Turbomeca Arriel 2S2 turboshaft, 922 shp (688 kW) each it doesn’t quite fit the bill. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/6 "2020-01-29T20:19:39Z")
Without clicking through the cites from the regs themselves, there is a [post](https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/1684/which-aircraft-are-required-to-have-a-black-box) on stackexchange that summarizes the regs > [@](#): > > Cockpit Voice Recorders > > Required for: > > large 4-engined turbine-powered planes > large 4-engined pressurized planes > multiengined turbine-powered planes seating 10+ passengers > multiengined turbine-powered rotorcraft seating 20+ passengers > multiengined turbine-powered planes and rotorcraft seating 6+ passengers and requiring two pilots > Relevant regulations: 14 CFR 121.359, 14 CFR 125.227, 14 CFR 135.151 > [@](#): > > Flight Data Recorders > > Required for: > > Multiengine turbine-powered airplanes or rotorcraft seating 10+ passengers > Multiengine turbine-powered airplanes or rotorcraft seating 6+ passengers and requiring two pilots > Large airplanes meant for use either over 25,000 feet > Large turbine-powered airplanes > Turbine-powered transport category planes > Relevant regulations: 14 CFR 91.609, 14 CFR 121.343, 14 CFR 121.344, 14 CFR 135.152 If there were no costs at all associated with gathering data that helped save lives, it would be simple. There are real costs though. Everything is a trade off. We are not just maximizing safety with government regulations (or personal decisions) in any area of our lives. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/7 "2020-01-29T20:41:09Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > [Apparently, the NTSB has been urging the FAA to require them for quite some time.](https://www.claimsjournal.com/news/national/2019/06/19/291543.htm) To no avail, unfortunately. > > Maybe now that a celebrity has been killed in a chopper crash, the FAA can be pressured (via public sentiment) to sit up and take notice. On what do you base your claim that the FAA have simply been ignoring the NTSB, rather than simply disagreeing with their analysis? It’s far from clear from that article that the NTSB has a compelling analysis to support their view. > [@](#): > > In a notice to the FAA last year, the NTSB said 159 aircraft involved in crashes from 2005 to 2017 had no form of recording equipment. The NTSB, which is charged with investigating transportation crashes across the U.S., said it was more difficult to investigate with the lack of information. > > **Of those 159 crashes, the NTSB was not able to determine the probable cause for 18 of them** , the agency said. It argues federal investigators would have more information to conduct critical safety probes if the data recorders were installed. So in almost 90% of cases where there was no recording equipment, the NTSB were still able to determine the probable cause of the crash. That raises the bar quite considerably on whether they would be a cost-effective safety measure. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/8 "2020-01-29T20:41:49Z")
**si\_blakely** summed it up pretty well. Flight data recorders are required on large aircraft. The question is, is the S-76 a ‘large aircraft’? The helicopters I’ve flown have two seats, so the Sikorsky certainly seems large to me. On the other hand it’s not as big as some other helicopters. In aircraft, weight is critical. The smaller the aircraft, the more critical is weight. ‘Black boxes’ are heavy. They’re also expensive, and they place a heavy economic burden on operators. Granted, the cost of a flight data recorder isn’t that much when your helicopter costs $15 million, but it’s a larger expense when you’re flying a used machine. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/9 "2020-01-29T20:58:39Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > Everything is a trade off. We are not just maximizing safety with government regulations (or personal decisions) in any area of our lives. See also: the mandatory use of seatbelts on buses and tobacco bans. Safer society, yes, but don’t hold your breath waiting for either to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/10 "2020-01-29T21:00:07Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Whatever you think about Stephen Colbert, he occasionally speaks eloquently on serious topics. After a moving acknowledgment of Kobe Bryant, he went into an appeal to add flight recorders to helicopters. > > His argument was based on his personal history as well as that of a pilot friend. Both lost family members in a plane accident in foggy conditions. Colbert Sr.’s accident led to increased safety rules for airplane cockpits. It was argued helicopters don’t usually have black boxes. This apparently leads to a lot of uncertainty after accidents, and makes establishing safer colters and conditions more difficult since fault may be difficult to ascertain. > > Is it true? If so, why? Surely other groups share this concern? There are finite resources in the world, and we need to put some thought into how we allocate them. When trying to evaluate whether the costs of a safety measure are justified, it’s necessarily to assign a value to a human life. Sounds cold, I know, but there’s really no other good way to make that decision. [The US DOT and presumably also the FAA) values a human life at $9.6M.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life#United_States) So now you can add up the dollars on both sides of the equation. First, if you mandate black boxes on all helicopters, how much will it cost per year in the future? There’s R&D, FAA certification, purchase cost, installation cost, maintenance cost, inspection cost, and probably some other costs I’m not thinking of. Second, how many lives will this mandate save per year in the future? saving a life means that info collected from a black box during its service life (whether from a fatal crash, a non-fatal crash, or a non-crash close call) was indispensible in understanding the cause of an incident - _and then influences future policy in a way that reduces the helicopter flight fatality rate._ “Future policy” can mean how we build helicopters, or how we train pilots to deal with in-flight contingencies. Take that second number and multiply it by $9.6M, and compare it to the first number. If it’s greater than the first number, then there might be a case for installing black boxes on helicopters. My guess is it’s not. A black box on Bryant’s helicopter would not have saved any of the 9 victims of that particular crash. Would it have elucidated some surprising root cause? Something that would have influenced future policy in a way that would have saved enough lives to make it worth the cost? Probably not. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/11 "2020-01-29T21:21:33Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Whatever you think about Stephen Colbert, he occasionally speaks eloquently on serious topics. After a moving acknowledgment of Kobe Bryant, he went into an appeal to add flight recorders to helicopters. You can be eloquent without being cogent. He’s using this recent accident and the emotions it evokes to advocate expensive measures that would, it appears, not have helped. As others have noted, the cause of this accident and the lessons to be learned from it are quite likely to emerge despite no on-board data or voice recordings. He should perhaps refrain from offering opinions on technical subjects he knows little about. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/12 "2020-01-29T22:11:40Z")
FWIW, [this article from 2016](http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20161005-inside-an-aeroplanes-black-box) says: > [@](#): > > Flight data recorders are about the size of a shoebox, weigh about 10 pounds, and cost close to £15,000 apiece. £15,000 is almost $20,000. Ten pounds may or may not be significant. It might be hard to find a place to put a shoebox-sized instrument. And remember that it will most likely have a moment that needs to be calculated into the weight-and-balance. Placing the instrument far from the C.G. means that ballast may have to be added elsewhere for w&b, and the additional weight of the instrument and any balast must be subtracted from gross weight. . ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/13 "2020-01-29T22:38:17Z")
The cheapest real helicopter I can find is the Mosquito which you can buy new for about $25,000. It seems pretty crazy to require a $20,000 black box to be added. Autogyros are even cheaper, under $20,000. The only way this would be feasible is if the boxes for helicopters could be made much more cheaply. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/14 "2020-01-29T22:40:24Z")
Presumably, though, they would not be required on all helicopters but only those used in commercial or charter flights, and perhaps only the more expensive copters that carry multiple passengers. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/15 "2020-01-29T22:51:40Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > The cheapest real helicopter I can find is the Mosquito which you can buy new for about $25,000. It seems pretty crazy to require a $20,000 black box to be added. Autogyros are even cheaper, under $20,000. The only way this would be feasible is if the boxes for helicopters could be made much more cheaply. The Mosquito is in the Experimental category, and so wouldn’t fall under a new rule requiring FDRs. The least expensive certified helicopter is, I think, the Robinson R22 at about $250,000. It’s a two-seater, so it would not be subject to new rules requiring FDRs. But just for the sake of argument, pretend it did. An FDR as they exist today represents about 8% of the cost of the helicopter. That’s a big chunk. There’s also no place to put one, unless you put it under one of the seats. R22s have a seat weight limit of 225 pounds, which includes anything in the compartments under the seats. Ten pounds is significant. An interesting thing about R22s is that they have a _minimum_ pilot weight. Where I flew, there was one woman who had to carry a bag of lead shot under her seat in order to stay within the weight-and-balance envelope. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/16 "2020-01-29T22:55:40Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > There are finite resources in the world, and we need to put some thought into how we allocate them. When trying to evaluate whether the costs of a safety measure are justified, it’s necessarily to assign a value to a human life. Sounds cold, I know, but there’s really no other good way to make that decision. > > [The US DOT and presumably also the FAA) values a human life at $9.6M.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life#United_States) So now you can add up the dollars on both sides of the equation. You might not have to know the value of a life. Just compare the number of lives saved by the black box to whatever other safety feature you can buy with the same money. That doesn’t help calculating how many lives will be saved by whatever policy changes result from the extra data the new black boxes produce. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/17 "2020-01-29T23:04:47Z")
I doubt the $20000 figure includes the extra wiring and sensors that would be needed to even create the data to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2020, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/18 "2020-01-29T23:13:22Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > You might not have to know the value of a life. Just compare the number of lives saved by the black box to whatever other safety feature you can buy with the same money. But that’s really the only sense in which that valuation claims to represent the value of a life. It represents the marginal cost of reducing the number of deaths by one in a given domain. It’s just that it’s more efficient for many purposes to represent this in monetary terms, for the same reason that it’s more efficient to use money rather than barter for general economic transactions. It allows a much wider comparison, because in principle the choice isn’t just about the best way to spend money on helicopter safety. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/19 "2020-01-30T02:15:09Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > You might not have to know the value of a life. Just compare the number of lives saved by the black box to whatever other safety feature you can buy with the same money. > > That doesn’t help calculating how many lives will be saved by whatever policy changes result from the extra data the new black boxes produce. Pass a law forcing all automobiles to be artificially limited to a top speed of 30mph, and you will have a far greater impact on fatal accidents than any number of aviation black boxes ever could. And stop and ask yourself– Would such a safety measure be worthwhile? Virtually nobody actually thinks it would, regardless of what they might claim to think. ---
**Author:** ![txjim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f07891/32.png) [@txjim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/txjim)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/20 "2020-01-30T02:56:12Z")
> [@jnglmassiv](#): > > I doubt the $20000 figure includes the extra wiring and sensors that would be needed to even create the data to begin with. Or the weight. A-kit items such as mounts and cable harnesses can get pretty heavy [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185.md?page=2)