# Why don’t helicopters have black boxes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 29, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185 "2020-01-29T19:56:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dstarfire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dstarfire/32/5762_2.png) [@dstarfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dstarfire)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/21 "2020-01-30T03:16:56Z")
Think about this: where, in a helicopter, would you place the data recorder so it’s most likely to survive a crash? AFAIK, most planes put the actual recording part of data recorders in the top rear of the fuselage since that’s generally the furthest spot from the most common impact scenarios. However, in a helicopter, one of the common crash scenarios involves loss of the tail rotor, so that’s out. Can’t put it at the top of the fuselage because getting the rotors tangled up in something is another semi-common crash scenario. Basically, plane crashes tend to impact in very similar ways (mostly forward (i.e. like a car crash), or scraping the top/bottom/wings over the ground). Helicopters can impact in many very different ways. ---
**Author:** ![joema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9adbd/32.png) [@joema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joema)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/22 "2020-01-30T04:29:55Z")
> [@jnglmassiv](#): > > I doubt the $20000 figure includes the extra wiring and sensors that would be needed to even create the data to begin with. The S-76D which is the current version of that helicopter has Cockpit Voice Recorder, Flight Data Recorder and Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning as _standard_ equipment. Every single one coming off the assembly line has that. This wasn’t due to regulations but a manufacturing decision by Sikorsky. On a $15 million helicopter, I guess they can throw in a few upgrades: [https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/rms/documents/s-76/Sikorsky-S76D-VIP-Brochure.pdf](https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed-martin/rms/documents/s-76/Sikorsky-S76D-VIP-Brochure.pdf) Also all EMS helicopters have had CVR and DVR for some time. That was regulatory. This accident raised the issue of whether to retrofit existing older helicopters, in this case the S-76B. Even if made a regulatory item, it wouldn’t be all helicopters - probably just turbine powered ones with six or more passenger seats - something like that. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/23 "2020-01-30T11:15:48Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > It’s not obvious to me that there’s necessarily that much uncertainty about helicopter accidents. The Kobe crash will almost certainly turn out to be pilot error, with the most significant contributing risk factor likely to be excessive pressure to complete flights as quickly as possible for important clients in marginal conditions. These pressures are much greater in _ad hoc_ private charters. I wonder if you have to go slower under IFR. If not, why didn’t the pilot just fly IFR if he was worried about time? And I suppose he could use the IFR instruments as much as he liked even if he doesn’t “declare” IFR. So why didn’t he? Or, if he did, then did the accident happen differently than is supposed? This guy must have flown hundreds of times under IFR. It’d be a piece of cake for him, I would guess. Would a pilot refuse to use his instruments just because he wasn’t under instrument rules? No, that’d be insane. So presuming he didn’t do that, what’s the problem? Just another IFR flight, right? (I understand it was SVFR, special visual flight rules, but that doesn’t mean he can’t use instruments). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/24 "2020-01-30T11:50:04Z")
> [@joema](#): > > The S-76D which is the current version of that helicopter has Cockpit Voice Recorder, Flight Data Recorder and Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning as _standard_ equipment. Every single one coming off the assembly line has that. This wasn’t due to regulations but a manufacturing decision by Sikorsky. Yes, that’s what a _newly made_ S-76 gets, but the helicopter involved in the crash was built in 1991. That stuff was not standard at the time. Sikorsky made the decision to include all that because there is some demand for it. Those are very nice and useful add-ons. Retrofitting, though costs money. For that matter, the new versions costs more money than the old. Hence the appeal of purchasing older helicopters that have been in use - you get a flying machine for less money. From my opinion, more equipment would not have made this flight safer because the pilot in charge didn’t even fully use the equipment he had at the time, and made a really dumbass decision to attempt an extended flight SVFR, a decision that would have been stupid even out where I live where the terrain is flat but worse where there are hills. The problem here was not a lack of technology but a lack of judgement. More avionics will not cure that. > [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > I wonder if you have to go slower under IFR. If not, why didn’t the pilot just fly IFR if he was worried about time? No, you don’t have to go slower under IFR. If anything, in those conditions, you can go just as fast if not faster under IFR and it’s _safer_. > [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > And I suppose he could use the IFR instruments as much as he liked even if he doesn’t “declare” IFR. So why didn’t he? This is kind of hard to explain to a non-pilot, and it doesn’t help that I’m not IFR rated although I have had a bit of an introduction to such flight. No, you can’t mix and match IFR and VFR flight. If you’re going to fly IFR your complete attention has to be on the instruments. Sure, flying VFR you can use the instruments, but it’s more like how you use your dash when you’re driving a car - the vast majority of the time you’re attention is outside the car, not looking at what’s on the dash. That’s VFR flying - you spend your time looking outside. IFR, though, you _never_ look outside, that’s a distraction. All of your attention has to be on the instruments. I’m hoping one of our IFR rated Dopers can explain that better than I can. > [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > This guy must have flown hundreds of times under IFR. It’d be a piece of cake for him, I would guess. While practice makes IFR flight easier over time it doesn’t, as I understand it, become second-nature like riding a bicycle. You have to practice on a regular basis to remain safe. If you haven’t been practicing for a while your skills deteriorate to an unsafe level. One problem that doesn’t go away is that you have to ignore what you’re body is telling you and rely ONLY on the instruments, and that’s not really a natural state of affairs. Your body can be very insistently telling you one thing (you’re straight and level, or in a turn, as examples) and you have to _completely ignore that_ and believe only what your eyes are telling you, because reality might be something completely different. This is more difficult than non-pilots (and VFR pilots with no IFR experience) usually understand. While IFR flight does become routine with practice, initially it is nothing unusual for there to be disorientation, dizziness, and even the occasional vomit as a pilot learns to ignore then own senses and rely on the instruments. The pros make it look easy, but that’s because they’re good at what they do. Again, I hope one of the IFR Dopers can expand on this. > [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Would a pilot refuse to use his instruments just because he wasn’t under instrument rules? No, that’d be insane. So presuming he didn’t do that, what’s the problem? How you use the instruments in VFR flight differs a great deal from how you use them in IFR flight. > [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Just another IFR flight, right? (I understand it was SVFR, special visual flight rules, but that doesn’t mean he can’t use instruments). You’re either all IFR or you’re VFR. There’s no mix-n-match. Again, VFR pilot do use instruments, but in a very different manner than how an IFR pilot does. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/25 "2020-01-30T12:09:13Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > You can be eloquent without being cogent. > > He’s using this recent accident and the emotions it evokes to advocate expensive measures that would, it appears, not have helped. As others have noted, the cause of this accident and the lessons to be learned from it are quite likely to emerge despite no on-board data or voice recordings. He should perhaps refrain from offering opinions on technical subjects he knows little about. He was addressing the emotional cost on the families of the survivors not knowing for sure exactly what happened. He wasn’t addressing technical subjects. And apparently he knows a little something about the emotional cost of aviation disasters. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/26 "2020-01-30T12:21:02Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > You’re either all IFR or you’re VFR. There’s no mix-n-match. Again, VFR pilot do use instruments, but in a very different manner than how an IFR pilot does. I understand, but when it’s 11 AM yet you can’t see anything around you because of thick fog… that seems like a good time to use one’s instruments in more of an IFR sort of way. Seems to me that beats waiting for the fog to lift so you can see again. Especially when you know 3000 ft hills are close by. ETA: In other words, when you are piloting an aircraft and become surrounded by fog, aren’t you now kinda on IFR whether you like it or not? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/27 "2020-01-30T12:29:35Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If you’re going to fly IFR your complete attention has to be on the instruments. Sure, flying VFR you can use the instruments, but it’s more like how you use your dash when you’re driving a car - the vast majority of the time you’re attention is outside the car, not looking at what’s on the dash. That’s VFR flying - you spend your time looking outside. IFR, though, you _never_ look outside, that’s a distraction. All of your attention has to be on the instruments. I’m hoping one of our IFR rated Dopers can explain that better than I can. To underscore this point, you can buy [training glasses](https://www.amazon.com/Aviation-Flight-Training-Glasses-Meteorological/dp/B01HWWFYMW) that obscure your view of everything except the instrument panel. A pilot in training (with an instructor in the other seat) would wear these to get in the habit of ignoring what they see on the outside of the plane and focusing on only what the instruments say. IFR rules exist for conditions in which it is _dangerous_ to rely on your eyes and inner ear. The official NTSB conclusion regarding [JFK Jr.'s crash](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_Jr._plane_crash) was that he probably was a victim of spatial disorientation. It was officially VFR conditions, but only barely so. He wasn’t IFR certified, but if he had ignored his eyes and paid attention what his altimeter and artificial horizon were telling him (you don’t need an IFR rating to do this!), then it’s likely he would not have crashed. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/28 "2020-01-30T15:32:56Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > I wonder if you have to go slower under IFR. If not, why didn’t the pilot just fly IFR if he was worried about time? And I suppose he could use the IFR instruments as much as he liked even if he doesn’t “declare” IFR. So why didn’t he? Or, if he did, then did the accident happen differently than is supposed? > > This guy must have flown hundreds of times under IFR. It’d be a piece of cake for him, I would guess. Would a pilot refuse to use his instruments just because he wasn’t under instrument rules? No, that’d be insane. So presuming he didn’t do that, what’s the problem? Just another IFR flight, right? (I understand it was SVFR, special visual flight rules, but that doesn’t mean he can’t use instruments). Under IFR, you must fly well above the elevation of any obstacles in the area for safety. In the weather conditions here, that would have meant in cloud the whole way. And that would require a formal Instrument Approach Procedure in order to descend safely when you can’t see, which usually means approaching a suitably equipped airport. It would have been possible to fly an instrument approach to an airport and switch to VFR once below cloud and go on to the private site that Kobe wanted to go to, but this would be much slower than going to the destination direct. Pretty much the whole point of helicopter commuting is that you can make relatively short trips very quickly by going direct to some destination other than an airport. That’s why most such helicopter operations are planned as low level VFR flights. Under VFR, your primary means to avoid obstacles and other aircraft is that you can _see_ them. You will still scan the instrument panel for various things, but it would be a _mistake_ to have too much attention on the instruments in VFR flight. Your eyes are usually outside, with an occasional scan of the instruments. The conditions here were marginal for visual flight, and probably deteriorated. Transitioning to IFR and climbing would not be the pilot’s first choice, since that would add considerably to the flight time for the reasons above. And it might have be safer to just land rather than try to transition to IFR, since there was a helipad nearby. Anyway, he likely first tried to maneuver to avoid the cloud/fog, and may have entered cloud inadvertently. If you want to remain visual, that usually means staying low. He may have made the mistake of continuing to attempt to maneuver visually at low level rather than commit to a transition to IFR, which would mean an immediate climb in the safest direction. What is very dangerous is to be vacillating in this situation, continuing to mess around and _try_ to fly visually at low level when you can’t see well enough to do so. If you do pull the trigger and transition to IFR, the switch to sudden 100% reliance upon instruments requires a “phase change” in mental state, and full focus and concentration, even for experienced pilots. While the pilot was experienced and qualified for instrument flight, few such helicopter operations are usually conducted under IFR, so he may not have had much _recent_ practice in doing so, and likely had far less total time flying on instruments than a fixed wing pilot. Instrument flying, especially in a helicopter which is less forgiving than fixed wing, requires practise to maintain your skills. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/29 "2020-01-30T15:51:46Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > He was addressing the emotional cost on the families of the survivors not knowing for sure exactly what happened. He wasn’t addressing technical subjects. And apparently he knows a little something about the emotional cost of aviation disasters. He was _explicitly_ addressing a difficult and technical question, whether adding black boxes would be a cost-effective safety measure. And the _least_ appropriate people to make rational judgments about safety policy are those who have a large emotional investment in the matter through being unlucky enough to have personally suffered greatly from rare events. ---
**Author:** ![edwardcoast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cab0a1/32.png) [@edwardcoast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwardcoast)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/30 "2020-01-30T16:51:12Z")
> [@Dr\_Paprika](#): > > Whatever you think about Stephen Colbert, he occasionally speaks eloquently on serious topics. After a moving acknowledgment of Kobe Bryant, he went into an appeal to add flight recorders to helicopters. > > His argument was based on his personal history as well as that of a pilot friend. Both lost family members in a plane accident in foggy conditions. Colbert Sr.’s accident led to increased safety rules for airplane cockpits. It was argued helicopters don’t usually have black boxes. This apparently leads to a lot of uncertainty after accidents, and makes establishing safer colters and conditions more difficult since fault may be difficult to ascertain. > > Is it true? If so, why? Surely other groups share this concern? Everything is about cost. If it would cost $100K per car to have seatbelts and airbags, they wouldn’t come standard and there would be no requirement to have seatbelts. If they could install a blackbox for the cost of $100.00 per aircraft, then they all would all be as common as having two-way communications. The bigger issue is, that the entire crash could have been avoided if the pilot refused to fly because of weather and others were advised not to do so. I seriously doubt that if Kobe Bryant wasn’t part of this group, the flight would have never taken off considering the weather conditions. The whole thing smells of entitlement and celebrity. They weren’t flying to save someone’s life or deliver urgent medical care. It was recreational travel to a stupid fucking sporting event to be a spectator, and that was the cause that killed everyone. No blackbox recorder was going to prevent this or learn anything new than you must respect mother nature and when advised not to fly, you don’t fly. Mother nature doesn’t care how good you are at throwing a ball. This is not about getting a good table at a trendy restaurant. This has to do with safety. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/31 "2020-01-30T17:31:36Z")
> [@edwardcoast](#): > > The bigger issue is, that the entire crash could have been avoided if the pilot refused to fly because of weather… This reminds me of an FAA safety poster from the '70s. (Dad was a Flight Service Specialist.) These posters featured a 1950s/1960s style cartoon, and a couplet. The poster I’m thinking of shows a high-winged airplane flying in mountainous terrain, with an angry anthropomorphic storm cloud rolling up its sleeves to knock the plane out of the sky. The couplet read: Get-there-itis/May someday bit us! (The other one I remember, though it doesn’t apply here, had a guy being chopped up by a propeller. The couplet read: A prop on the loose/Could cook your goose.) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/32 "2020-01-30T17:52:18Z")
Having caught up on some of the latest news coming out, an important addendum to above comments about IFR/VFR: it appears that the operator here may not be certified for IFR operations, even if the aircraft/pilot were equipped/qualified to do so. That could be a significant factor in the pilot’s decision making under difficult circumstances where a transition to IFR may have been the safest option. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/33 "2020-01-30T18:01:32Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > What is very dangerous is to be vacillating in this situation, continuing to mess around and _try_ to fly visually at low level when you can’t see well enough to do so. If you do pull the trigger and transition to IFR, the switch to sudden 100% reliance upon instruments requires a “phase change” in mental state, and full focus and concentration, even for experienced pilots. > > While the pilot was experienced and qualified for instrument flight, few such helicopter operations are usually conducted under IFR, so he may not have had much _recent_ practice in doing so, and likely had far less total time flying on instruments than a fixed wing pilot. Instrument flying, especially in a helicopter which is less forgiving than fixed wing, requires practise to maintain your skills. This is why I suspect that spatial disorientation set in. The final seconds of the flight path look a whole lot like the ‘death spiral’ I hear so much about as a fixed wing student pilot. But there’s another explanation I thought interesting. This came up in a discussion between locals. If the pilot was simply ‘off’ by one exit in where he thinks he was, over the Lost Hills exit instead of the Las Virgenes exit, he would have had plenty of room to make the maneuver he attempted. Just an observation based on local topography. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/34 "2020-01-30T18:50:31Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > But there’s another explanation I thought interesting. This came up in a discussion between locals. If the pilot was simply ‘off’ by one exit in where he thinks he was, over the Lost Hills exit instead of the Las Virgenes exit, he would have had plenty of room to make the maneuver he attempted. Just an observation based on local topography. But it’s notable that he was going _very_ fast, which obviously isn’t appropriate under deteriorating visibility and most especially for a turning maneuver in poor visibility, whatever his precise lateral position. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/35 "2020-01-30T18:56:06Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The Kobe crash will almost certainly turn out to be pilot error, with the most significant contributing risk factor likely to be excessive pressure to complete flights as quickly as possible for important clients in marginal conditions. These pressures are much greater in _ad hoc_ private charters. Black boxes don’t help the crashed aircraft, they help future aircraft by building the knowledge database / correcting deficiencies in the aircraft (737Max). I agree that the cause of this crash is most likely to be pilot error; flying below minimums & possibly spatial disorientation. Black boxes can only give information on various sensors & pilot inputs, along with sounds for a CVR, they can’t pick up outside conditions like fog. I bet when the preliminary & final reports are issued, even if there _was_ a black box on this helicopter there won’t be anything found to be wrong with the aircraft & anything that can be leaned from the black box data. Also remember, commercial airplanes have two black boxes, a cockpit voice recorder & a data recorder. However, helicopter cockpits are much closer to the power plant & sometimes even do doors off flights making the cockpit much louder than in a Boeing or an Airbus. You might not be able to hear the various clicks & whirs, alarms & pilot conversations if it had a CVR. More important that black boxes would have been a terrain awareness and warning system, estimated to be a $25-$40,000 retrofit. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/36 "2020-01-30T19:08:35Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > More important that black boxes would have been a terrain awareness and warning system, estimated to be a $25-$40,000 retrofit. I was about to question the validity of this for VFR ops, but I haven’t flown for decades, and I see that I’m way out of date on current tech. EGPWS optimized for VFR: > **[Mark XXI EGPWS](https://aerospace.honeywell.com/us/en/products-and-services/product/hardware-and-systems/terrain-and-traffic-awareness/mark-xxi-egpws)** > > The Mark XXI enhanced ground proximity warning system (EGPWS) is a terrain awareness and warning system (TAWS). Read more! ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/37 "2020-01-30T19:22:31Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I was about to question the validity of this for VFR ops, but I haven’t flown for decades, and I see that I’m way out of date on current tech. EGPWS optimized for VFR: > > [Mark XXI EGPWS](https://aerospace.honeywell.com/en/learn/products/terrain-and-traffic-awareness/mark-xxi-egpws) Not knowing much about helicopter operations (or commercial ops in general) would something like the TAWS and synthetic vision in ForeFlight be a useful workaround? I mean, I have these tools available on my iPad flying a bugsmasher. Seems like a no-brainer to have this available elsewhere… > **[ForeFlight - Hazard Avoidance: Increased Situational Awareness](https://foreflight.com/products/foreflight-mobile/hazard-avoidance/)** > > ForeFlight Mobile features a variety of hazard avoidance technologies for better situational awareness and safety. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/38 "2020-01-30T20:46:52Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > … why didn’t the pilot just fly IFR if he was worried about time? I believe that to fly IFR requires that you take off and land only at facilities that have approved IFR guidance. Which probably means you can’t deliver your VIPs to their preferred destination. > [@](#): > > I understand it was SVFR, special visual flight rules, but that doesn’t mean he can’t use instruments. Under SVFR he’s required to maintain visual contact with the ground and sufficient horizontal visibility to stay safe. In difficult conditions, this probably requires that a high percentage of your time be spent looking outside, not at instruments. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/39 "2020-01-30T21:17:56Z")
Just to note that Special VFR only applies to a VFR flight when passing through controlled airspace, in this case Van Nuys. By the time of the crash, he had left the Van Nuys controlled airspace, so he was no longer _Special_ VFR. That isn’t particularly important for any of the broad issues discussed above for VFR vs IFR flying. The Special VFR crossing of Van Nuys was notable because under Special VFR you must follow the controller’s instructions. He was required to hold (wait, circling) for 15 minutes east of Van Nuys; and to route to the north side of Van Nuys for separation from IFR traffic to/from Van Nuys, rather than take his preferred route straight along highway 101. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2020, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185/40 "2020-01-30T22:55:59Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > I understand, but when it’s 11 AM yet you can’t see anything around you because of thick fog… that seems like a good time to use one’s instruments in more of an IFR sort of way. Seems to me that beats waiting for the fog to lift so you can see again. Especially when you know 3000 ft hills are close by. Yes. Those are the conditions in which you file an IFR flight plan. They are NOT conditions in which to request SVFR to get you from point A to point B. SVFR is for transiting a controlled airspace to a less controlled airspace when the visibility in the more controlled airspace is too crap for VFR -BUT- visibility in the less controlled airspace does meet VFR minimums. In this case, the airspace outside both the Class C (first airport on the ATC tape) and the Class D (second airport) airspace did NOT meet VFR definitions for that less controlled airspace so, sorry, this was inappropriate. > [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > ETA: In other words, when you are piloting an aircraft and become surrounded by fog, aren’t you now kinda on IFR whether you like it or not? Yep. And survival rates for pilots attempting _continued_ flight in such conditions without switching to IFR is abysmal. The end comes quickly, as a general rule. Should that happen to a pilot they can either 1. File for IFR (if possible - it may be that either the pilot or the aircraft is not IFR suitable) 2. Call ATC for help and IF there is sufficient instrumentation and IF the pilot knows how to use it and IF VFR conditions are not too far away they MIGHT survive the experience 3. Land as soon as it is physically possible. Note, this does not, strictly speaking, require an airport or even a paved surface. That’s pretty much it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-helicopters-have-black-boxes/847185.md?page=3)