# Why don’t we (Americans) dye people’s fingers when they vote? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 24, 2012, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925 "2012-05-24T07:08:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![grama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@grama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grama)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/21 "2012-05-26T15:48:54Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Since there’s nothing in your post or profile to indicate where “we” is, that’s not terribly helpful, is it? Sorry. Chile ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/22 "2012-05-26T16:12:23Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Someone could say that having to go to the township registration office during business hours, no later than 60 days before the election, with evidence of citizenship and residence in hand, is itself onerous yet it’s in the clear. Well yes, there is some level of effort that is necessary; a process for voting by telepathic link has yet to be developed. Yet a legislator using processes that are necessary to conduct an election as cover for an attempt to suppress voter turnout would be transparently disingenuous. > [@Terr](#): > > Standing in line to vote is a form of a poll tax? Unless you are being intentionally obtuse, I apologize for my inability to clarify my point such that the obvious absurdity of your interpretation is apparent. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/23 "2012-05-26T17:38:18Z")
Seems to me the logical approach if one is really pushing for voter ID is to look at venues that already have it. Do we have any stats on: 1. How much longer the voting process becomes, if it does. 2. How much more expensive the voting process becomes, if it does. 3. How many legitimate voters don’t cast because of delays and expense, if any. 4. How many fraud attempts are detected, if any. Surely it is possible to gather such data. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/24 "2012-05-26T18:14:07Z")
Wouldn’t the logical approach begin with determining whether or not the type of voter fraud that ID laws are capable of preventing exists to a significant level? Until that can be demonstrated, then any monies or resources spent on it are wasted. Any decrease in voting numbers is absolutely needless. That it’s targeted at the opposition party is anti-democracy. Random [link](http://www.pennpirg.org/news/pap/vast-majority-pa-college-ids-not-valid-voting): > [@](#): > > April 12, PHILADELPHIA - A recent study released today by PennPIRG and a broad coalition of voter protection groups found that Pennsylvania’s new photo ID voting law could potentially disenfranchise more than 80% of the state’s college students. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/25 "2012-05-26T18:15:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Standing in line to vote is a form of a poll tax? Yes it is, when it’s imposed as a way of extracting value from the public. Look at it this way. If the government demanded a bushel of wheat before you could vote, that would clearly be a poll tax, right? So it’s not about money, per se. What if the government said you have to provide eight hours of labor to the government? I think you would agree that that could be seen as a form of tax, right? Even if it’s not what people usually think of, economically it’s the same thing. What if, instead of eight hours, you just had to press a few license plates? Now, what if they set up a machine for pressing license plates, such that you only had to pull a lever with exactly the same amount of force that used to be required to pull the lever on an old mechanical voting booth? You can’t argue that’s onerous or burdensome, when it was fine making people pull a lever before, but now the government is doing it to extract value, to get something out of you. Economically, it’s the same thing, whether it’s a few cents of tax or a few cents of labor: the government is demanding value from you. Now, like a lot of things, this gets fuzzy around the edges, especially because it relies on knowing _why_ the government is making you do something. Is it making you pull a lever because that’s the best way they’ve come up with to count votes, or are they doing as a way of getting something from you? When you have to travel to the polls or mail in your ballot, isn’t that getting labor from you compared with having government workers come to you to do those things? Do we have to read the minds of the legislators and civil servants to see what their intent was in setting up a system? In practice, we tend to assume a benign motive for most things unless there is extremely clear evidence otherwise. If there’s another plausible explanation for doing something (That’s just the easiest way of running the system) then we tend to accept it because we can’t prove otherwise. _Maybe_ those old voting booths were set up that way to force people to perform labor for their vote, but we don’t just _presume_ so. Here it’s different, though. **Bricker** has explicitly said that he supports measures that cause there to be a cost to voting _for that reason_. That’s not enough to make those measures unconstitutional legally, but it’s certainly enough to say that **Bricker** is on record as supporting something that is economically a poll tax. Now there’s one final objection that I haven’t addressed, namely that the government isn’t getting anything from you by making you wait in line, that it may be a cost to the citizen, but it’s not a tax because the government doesn’t gain that value. But that’s irrelevant. If the cost of collecting tax return is greater than the amount you pay, you’re still being taxed. If the government let the wheat in my forst example rot, it would still be a poll tax. It doesn’t matter whether the government does anything with the value it gets out of you, or even if it has a means of benefitting from it. Making you pull a lever attached to nothing at all is still a labor tax, as long as the purpose is make you pay a cost. After all, the original poll taxes weren’t about enriching coffers, they were about placing a bar on voting. And that’s exactly what **Rhythmdvl** has quoted **Bricker** as supporting. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/26 "2012-05-26T18:38:48Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Wouldn’t the logical approach begin with determining whether or not the type of voter fraud that ID laws are capable of preventing exists to a significant level? Until that can be demonstrated, then any monies or resources spent on it are wasted. Any decrease in voting numbers is absolutely needless. That it’s targeted at the opposition party is anti-democracy. > > Random [link](http://www.pennpirg.org/news/pap/vast-majority-pa-college-ids-not-valid-voting): Did you actually read your cite? It says that they couldn’t use their college IDs as a form of photo ID to vote. So what? College IDs don’t count as legal identification for employment purposes even for on-campus jobs either, or any other instance I can think of that requires a photo ID for legal purposes. They’d need to use a license or non-driver ID for voting just as they would getting a gun permit or filling out an I-9 or driving a car or purchasing alcohol. Unless 80% of PA college students don’t drive or hold jobs, they’re hardly being disenfranchised by not being able to vote with a college ID. Hell, our state allows out-of-state college kids to vote on campus provided they provide proof of residence when they register (which can be same-day) and even we don’t accept a UNH or Dartmouth id as that proof - you need 2 bills with your campus address. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/27 "2012-05-26T18:59:48Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Did you actually read your cite? It says that they couldn’t use their college IDs as a form of photo ID to vote. So what? College IDs don’t count as legal identification for employment purposes even for on-campus jobs either, or any other instance I can think of that requires a photo ID for legal purposes. They’d need to use a license or non-driver ID for voting just as they would getting a gun permit or filling out an I-9 or driving a car or purchasing alcohol. Unless 80% of PA college students don’t drive or hold jobs, they’re hardly being disenfranchised by not being able to vote with a college ID. > > Hell, our state allows out-of-state college kids to vote on campus provided they provide proof of residence when they register (which can be same-day) and even we don’t accept a UNH or Dartmouth id as that proof - you need 2 bills with your campus address. Did you actually read the thread? They can’t use their IDs to vote. So what? Do you know what it’s called when someone who should be eligible to vote is prevented from doing so? _Disenfranchisement_. And why? Because students tend to vote for the Democratic party. Other than that, there is no problem that requiring IDs would address. Random [cite](http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/susan-milligan/2011/03/07/new-hampshire-republicans-wrong-to-attack-college-sudent-voting): > [@](#): > > Oh, those pesky young people. They’re “foolish.” They “just vote their feelings” and they don’t have any “life experience.” > > At least, that’s the assessment of New Hampshire’s new state House Speaker, William O’Brien, whose address to Tea Party movement activists was captured by a Democratic staffer, posted on YouTube, and reported in the Washington Post. The Granite State’s Republicans are pushing for new laws that would prohibit many of New Hampshire’s college students from voting in the state—or even at all, the Post reports. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/28 "2012-05-26T19:18:24Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Unless you are being intentionally obtuse, I apologize for my inability to clarify my point such that the obvious absurdity of your interpretation is apparent. You were told this: I think there’s value in making the vote require some effort, some small sacrifice – something that never places it out of reach, but puts a price on it. Not a price paid vicariously, either; a personal price – **time to stand in line at the polls** , time to Xerox your license and mail it in, whatever. I don’t view these measures as inherently wrong. You responded: Though I am aware of the semantical differences of legal terms of art (thank you, Georgetown Law), it matters not what you name the rose, a “price” on voting is walks and quacks; it’s a form of a poll tax. From the statement and your response, it is clear that you consider waiting in line at the poll “a form of a poll tax”, since it’s a “price” on voting. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/29 "2012-05-26T19:34:58Z")
I apologize. Given your apparent insistence that you are not being deliberately obtuse, it is beyond my ability to help you understand either Bricker’s or my points. I suggest you read **Alan Smithee’s** post; his approach may help you understand the discussion and avoid the appearance of getting needlessly mired in semantic games. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/30 "2012-05-26T20:41:10Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > I suggest you read **Alan Smithee’s** post; his approach may help you understand the discussion and avoid the appearance of getting needlessly mired in semantic games. I find it odd that you cite your and Alan’s posts as examples of _not_ getting mired in semantic games. Poll taxes aren’t illegal because of some fine distinction about what it means for the government to extract value from the public. Poll taxes are illegal because, like “literacy” tests, they violate the Equal Protection Clause and were used as a form of institutional racism. It seems unlikely that Bricker’s suggestion meets the same standard. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/31 "2012-05-26T21:47:20Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I find it odd that you cite your and Alan’s posts as examples of _not_ getting mired in semantic games. Poll taxes aren’t illegal because of some fine distinction about what it means for the government to extract value from the public. Poll taxes are illegal because, like “literacy” tests, they violate the Equal Protection Clause and were used as a form of institutional racism. It seems unlikely that Bricker’s suggestion meets the same standard. Perhaps you may want to look into what getting mired in semantics means (no pun intended). At issue in the thread is the disenfranchisement of a largely identifiable group of people. The method of disenfranchisement includes intentionally placing a price or other sort of premium for the purpose of disenfranchising them. I haven’t said this particular method of disenfranchisement is illegal. In fact, that’s one of the elements that makes it particularly insidious. You want to jump up and down and define “poll tax” that narrowly? Have at it, most people can see through a semantic gambit. I even addressed such a bit of silliness in that post—while “poll tax” does have a very particular meaning in certain contexts, this is not one of them. If you insist on such games, please make up a word that basically means the same thing but will be immune to such useless sidetracks. I suggest keeping it to one or two syllables maximum to make it easier to follow along. ---
**Author:** ![benbo1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@benbo1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/benbo1)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/32 "2012-05-27T01:34:20Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > What’s really stupid is the anti-democracy people pushing voter ID just have to to do one simple thing. Set up a solid, respectable program to help anyone, regardless of income to acquire ID free of charge. Such a thing would take the rhetorical wind right out of my sails. > > That’s it. But they don’t. Apparently money is more important than democracy. > **benbo1** , are flying, and driving rights or privileges? I have never needed an ID to see a doctor, so I don’t know what the fuck you’re babbling about there. Fine. It’s ‘… to see a doctor with insurance.’. The insurance card itself ain’t enough - receptionists now demand to see the driver’s license as well. For the same reason as voter id - to prevent fraud. Voting is a privilege too, btw. Ex-cons can’t vote, and netither can unregistered. U can argue all u want that this discriminates against the illiterate. Bottom line, there is a reason to have voter id, and no reason not to. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/33 "2012-05-27T02:04:19Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > I apologize. Given your apparent insistence that you are not being deliberately obtuse, it is beyond my ability to help you understand either Bricker’s or my points. I suggest you read **Alan Smithee’s** post; his approach may help you understand the discussion and avoid the appearance of getting needlessly mired in semantic games. Alan Smithee says that waiting in line to vote is a poll tax. You seemed to disagree with that. Now I you seem to agree. Make up your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/34 "2012-05-27T02:11:21Z")
> [@benbo1](#): > > Fine. It’s ‘… to see a doctor with insurance.’. The insurance card itself ain’t enough - receptionists now demand to see the driver’s license as well. For the same reason as voter id - **to prevent fraud**. Voting is a privilege too, btw. Ex-cons can’t vote, and netither can unregistered. U can argue all u want that this discriminates against the illiterate. Bottom line, there is a reason to have voter id, and no reason not to. See, there’s your problem right there. Repeat after me. The issue of fraud that voter ID is supposed to alleviate does not exist. It is a fake thread concocted by one political party to lessen the representation of another political party. It’s goal is to suppress votes and subvert democracy. Falling for it lumps you in with either the gullible, the self-deluded or the active participants perpetrating these collective insults against democracy. Given that you feel “voting is a privilege,” I assume that you are in the latter camp; your concept of democracy is severely flawed. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/35 "2012-05-27T02:12:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Alan Smithee says that waiting in line to vote is a poll tax. You seemed to disagree with that. Now I you seem to agree. Make up your mind. As I said, since you are insisting that you are not being deliberately obtuse, I can only assume that anything I say to you will fall on deaf ears. I’m sorry for not engaging you, but it seems that it would be a futile task. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![benbo1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@benbo1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/benbo1)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/36 "2012-05-27T02:28:27Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > See, there’s your problem right there. > > Repeat after me. > > The issue of fraud that voter ID is supposed to alleviate does not exist. > > It is a fake thread concocted by one political party to lessen the representation of another political party. > > It’s goal is to suppress votes and subvert democracy. > > Falling for it lumps you in with either the gullible, the self-deluded or the active participants perpetrating these collective insults against democracy. > > Given that you feel “voting is a privilege,” I assume that you are in the latter camp; your concept of democracy is severely flawed. Sure. And u are the Arbiter of All That is Right and Good [\sarcasm]. There is absolutely no evidence of any attempt to revoke any1’s rights to vote legitimately. Your side continually evades the question: what harm is there in preventing fraud? Are the doctors’ receptionists trampling on my rights too, trying to prevent me from using someone else’s insurance card, by insisting on a picture id? Following your logic, all 50 DMVs are participating in a conspiracy to deny democracy by insisting on some knowledge of driving laws to get a driver’s license. By the same token, voting is NOT a right for those who are unregistered or ex-cons. There is still zero support for the position that picture ids will do any harm, and plenty of evidence of previous voter fraud. Those that are against requiring ids do so in order to not subvert any existing process, i.e. people voting who shouldn’t be allowed to (those who voted previously, ex-cons, and unregistered). Nothing ‘undemocratic’ about enforcing rules & protecting a system against abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/37 "2012-05-27T02:31:51Z")
> [@grama](#): > > we do it (although a pad or sponge is used, kind of like when they take your fingerprint) and I think it’s stupid. It doesn’t prevent anything, and even though it comes off easy enough it’s still annoying. I don’t know what the hell kind of ink they are using, but I voted (Dominican Rep.) a week ago and I still have a stain on my finger. Now, while double voting is mostly taken care of, there are always allegations of “irregularities” from the losing parties, that have nothing to do with the wrong person voting. Not that that has anything to do with the US situation. ---
**Author:** ![benbo1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@benbo1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/benbo1)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/38 "2012-05-27T02:34:40Z")
Careful - Rhythmdvl will accuse u of supporting voter suppression. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/39 "2012-05-27T02:37:55Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > The issue of fraud that voter ID is supposed to alleviate does not exist. > > It is a fake thread concocted by one political party to lessen the representation of another political party. > > It’s goal is to suppress votes and subvert democracy. For the Nth time, were the Democrat-controlled legislatures in Rhode Island and Delaware trying to subvert democracy and suppress votes when they passed the Voter ID laws? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925/40 "2012-05-27T02:38:58Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > As I said, since you are insisting that you are not being deliberately obtuse, I can only assume that anything I say to you will fall on deaf ears. I’m sorry for not engaging you, but it seems that it would be a futile task. Good luck. When you decide which way you’re leaning - is waiting in line to vote a form of poll tax or not - get back to me. Good luck. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-don-t-we-americans-dye-people-s-fingers-when-they-vote/622925.md?page=3)