Why don’t you lift weights?

In My Humble Opinion
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The protein needs of the average person are much lower than someone trying to build muscle. It is pretty much universally recommended that people trying to build muscle need (for my weight) 120g at a minimum. People who aren’t trying to build muscle don’t really need to worry about their protein intake. Almost nobody in the US is protein deficient. The average vegan is not protein deficient. It’s the muscle growth goal that requires extra protein.

To the best of my admittedly limited understanding.

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Thanks, this was really useful. Unfortunately, I have stomach trouble with most dairy products, except, for some reason, cheese.

But since I’ve started working seafood and some meat into my diet, I haven’t had as much trouble with protein intake. I’m glad to hear I’m on the right track.

The main reason I started shifting toward veganism was because of inflation skyrocketing meat costs. But I also noticed that in preparing vegan meals, I was consuming more plants overall, and a wider variety of plant foods, and this made me feel physically better overall. So my approach does not necessitate 100% adherence to a vegan diet. I’ve just found I feel better when I skew that way.

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The reason very likely is lactose intolerance. Many cheeses are low in lactose and can be tolerated. Greek yogurt is essentially lactose free.

I’m a much bigger fan of real food than supplements but a pea protein or soy powder in a smooothie is also an easy way to boost your protein.

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That’s weird, because Greek yogurt is one of my strongest reactions.

Which isn’t to say I never eat dairy. I sometimes do, and suffer the consequences. I’ve been drinking a lot of milk lately.

My nutrition was garbage in December which also has me scratching my head about how I lost weight. There were weeks I ate delivery 3-4x because I didn’t feel well enough to cook, and I backslid and started drinking soda again. I drank two 12-packs of soda.

And I lost weight.

I’m done now. I’ve decided to keep exercising even if I get sick, and back to not drinking soda, even when my stomach is upset. And I do expect to get sick again because I have a toddler who recently entered daycare, so I’m bracing myself for frequent illness until at least late Spring.

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If you want to lose weight, diet matters much more than exercise. Not all calories are the same. Not all exercises are the same either.

Most people would like to lose fat but keep muscle. This can be done, but gaining in strength at the same time is a tall order, but can be done in a limited way. People selling protein have claimed you need huge amounts. This is true for young novice weightlifters who can gain weight and strength very quickly, but moderate amounts are fine if you are over thirty and already more fat than you would like. Eating protein may mean fewer carbs, which has it benefits, and it is harder to get fat eating protein than carbs. But carbs are needed to build muscle, and avoiding healthy fruits and vegetables is both counterproductive and silly.

Weightlifting will not cause quick fat loss or localize it to one perceived problem area. It improves body composition over time. Diet is more important - I advocate getting five or more daily servings of vegetables and adequate fibre. Few do this. It will make cravings more controllable, nudge you to eat healthier, and cause significant fullness on its own to limit the damage from indulging. *If you eat okay 90% of snacks and meals, you can cheat all you want on the other 10%, provided you are not cheating on the 90% and the 10%.

Strength train twice a week (up to a maximum of four times). Take a daily walk. If you want to exercise more, sprinting 400m or brief sprinting (high 70-90% effort, times under fifteen seconds, machines just as good as track, warmup and hamstring stretch mandatory, read how to do it before you do to prevent hamstring injuries) has a more long term effect on fat loss and appetite than most exercises.

High effort, medium duration (a minute) exercises like pushing prowlers, farmers walks, circuit training, complexes or tough 10-20 rep sets (50-60% of maximum) probably work better than most exercises. Long runs, swims and climbing (more than thirty minutes, moderate paces) once a week help too, as long as your body is not very used to doing them.

If going further, keep most carbohydrates for breakfast, and in a 2 hour window before and after exercise. Outside this time, try to have most calories as a mixture of protein and fat with few carbs, but don’t include whole fruits and vegetables. Try to eat a bigger lunch and smaller dinner. Eat more delicious seafood.

@DSeid, not sure it is well known how quickly muscular elderly people lose mass in the ICU. There are fewer of them and they spend less time there. But even a lousy four days in bed in the ICU for sedentary people can weaken lumbar quadratus muscles enough to make mobility and walking difficult.

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Yeah then I got nuthin’.

Personal opinion is that scale is not the be all end all. Illness burns through muscle mass, especially with crap nutrition.

Which gets me wondering about how much, and I suspect that @Dr_Paprika might know.

Established that being sedentary past middle age causes muscle mass loss that can be avoided with even modest strength training, even gaining strength and muscle mass. How much more quickly than the sedentary state does muscle mass come off dealing with illnesses?

I imprecisely suspect quite a bit.

Which is of course all the more reason to have fitness and muscle mass savings accrued to better weather those to some degree unavoidable events.

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So not parsed out by muscle mass at start but my attempt at a search results in a figure of about 2% per day first week in an ICU. My WAG would be the same present applies to the relatively muscular and not so muscular elderly, but 1) indeed the muscled are healthier to start so less often in the ICU and likely out of there faster as well, and 2) 2% may be larger absolute mass lost each day but still leaving the individual without weakness after and able to recover as it starts at a higher absolute level. Hence much less likely to be disabled after illness. As this article documents:

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Ach didn’t put the link for the 2% number.

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The percentage is less important than the fact not all muscles are equally useful. Big arm muscles won’t help you walk.^. The spinal and pelvic muscles are not emphasized by lifters but are of considerable importance to elderly people. Losing spinal muscle during ICU stays is very relevant to mobility, losing general muscle slightly less so - but in a 80 year old sedentary person they may be starting from a 30% muscle deficit, often of clinical significance.

Spinal muscles are adequately worked by “posterior chain” exercises, including squats and deadlifts, but pelvic bridges are of great benefit, for insurance. And for other things.

When I said age costs 1% muscle per year after fifty, and illness costs 1% per day, these approximations are from the Hazzard’s Geriatric Medicine and Gerontology Textbook (see article on sarcopenia). 2% is similar, so sounds reasonable. If a study said that I could believe it.

^The arm muscles are relatively small. Though lifters often work on arm muscles a lot, most would be better off just trying to get big all over mainly through basic multi joint exercises - (squat, deadlift, press, benching using dumbbells or floor press or bench press if no shoulder issues) - which is how arms get big - not by focusing too much on small muscle groups. (And dips and pull-ups are more effective than most curls).

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This wasn’t directed to me, but I can say that I have had success burning fat strictly by weight lifting and proper nutrition - I tend to avoid most cardio (not that this is a good thing)

There’s two reasons weight lifting will burn fat. One, an intense exercise session (usually no more than 35 minutes) will result in breaking a good sweat, burning calories. More importantly, muscles (unlike fat) require calories to maintain - so your body’s resting metabolism is improved.

Of course, as the adage goes, abs are made in the kitchen. For me, that means eating 6 small meals evenly spaced throughout the day, with an emphasis on high protein and high fiber (I.e. chicken and whole grain rice; all natural peanut butter on high fiber bread (I eat Dave’s Killer Bread); eggs and whole grain toast; sweet potatoes and fish). I also include a serving of fruit or vegetables with each meal, too, which really helps with sweet cravings. Add to that lots of water (which helps with muscle fullness). I also supplement with protein shakes to get to the goal of 1 gram per pound of body weight (Atkins has some with 23 grams of protein and 7 grams of fiber!).

Ultimately, I’m not worried about a calorie deficit, and although I’m never “full”, I’m never “hungry” either (nor do I do something drastic like stop eating after 7 pm; with eating 6 times a day, my last meal is usually about 9:30 and right before bed. But it’s light: some eggs and cottage cheese)

Of course, the exercise is high intensity: dumbbells and barbell exercises like presses and rows, done to muscle failure. I’m dripping sweat when I’m done.

But, with that combination, I’ve been able to get my body fat low enough to see my abs (even into my 40s) which wouldn’t be possible without burning off fat.

(Less you think any of this is boastful, I must emphasize that my workout life is very boom or bust; after 5-6 months of this type of routine, I usually fall off the wagon hard - we’re talking no exercise, lots of sugar and fast food, but also skipping regular meals so I only eat once a day. Sometimes I’ll go for up to a year before returning. It’s why I’m so familiar with how my body responds from going from out of shape to healthy - I’ve done the “come back” thing so many times, and I’m desperate to make it stick).

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'Cuz I’m lazy. Next question.

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Some papers of possible interest (for the less lazy):

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I’m interested to understand your logic here. I ask as a big fan of mixing it up.

No question activities we are unaccustomed to are more difficult. Just like with some initial strength gains, neuromuscular adaptations and other specific activity adaptations make us more efficient, burning fewer calories, unless we engage progressively.

For strength training progression is things like adding weight so momentary failure hits within the aimed for number of reps. For longer aerobic it’s target heart rate and/or perceived effort being maintained by running or swimming or hiking (whatever) faster and/or farther.

You still see many doing the ineffective vanity muscle focus lifting? I’m not in gyms much but that surprises me. My big in office public service announcement is no news to most I see: the big compound lifts are the most effective way to build strength and mass, including the vanity muscles, and the easiest way to wreck your back if done with less than perfect form. Every rep a perfect rep.

Even though I am not understanding the inclusion of the study about melatonin and nicotinomide mononucleotide, interesting reads, especially the ones on frailty and epigenetic changes.

For those for whom this is TL;DNR, the evidence from those together is that exercise not only keeps us functioning as if we are younger longer; it actually biologically changes our aging clock. Even started later in life.

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Different people have different mixes of slow and fast twitch muscles fibres. The body is wondrously adaptable and training does affect these ratios. Over time I have leaned what works best for me. This does not mean it works better for everyone, or that you should apply any advice without considering your personal situation or talking with your doctor who knows you. Some exercise is better than none. An exercise you enjoy is one you might stick with. In age related sarcopenia, the IIB muscle fibres diminish first.

A lot of lifters are skeptics of cardio. They don’t like doing it; they want to lose fat but not muscle. But it is also harder to do for bigger people. There are few very muscular long distance athletes. But exercising intensely for short periods of time does not seem to cannibalize muscle, even after strength training. Nor do repeated intermediate sessions done on alternate days. Longer training might, if done often, but has other health benefits (eg: cardiovascular) so is worth doing. Once in a while. When you get efficient at a repeated activity, you burn fewer calories. But there may also be considerations with burning both fat and muscle and repetitive strain. Once a week is a compromise suggestion.

In fact, very intense exercise (eg: sprinting), even for low numbers (5-10) of five second bouts (up to twenty seconds), if intense, seems to have remarkable effects on appetite and burning fat over the following day or two, exceeding what one would expect from a few minutes work or the calories expended. I have become a fan, the twitch profile matches lifting well. But it is easy to pull a hamstring so one should learn how to do it before incorporating it in one’s routine. Good benefits for little time. (This is also true of 15 minute cycling workouts alternating between all-out for fifteen seconds (say) and going slowly for fifteen seconds - a Tabata style protocol). The body cannot go at full intensity for more than 10-20 seconds due to limits of ATP production, but brief rest replenishes the system to some degree.

Of course, many people who strength train or struggle to exercise are not interested in long sessions. Nor are they better, I know many long distance runners. Like CrossFitters, a lot have injuries at any given time. If that’s what you love, go for it. But injuries matter to elderly people. They probably need to pay attention to good form as well. Experienced lifters can benefit from small deviations from perfect form, but this is beyond the scope of this thread.

I read a bunch of papers at the same time, and posted a few online. Sometimes reading something triggers reading something somewhere else in a somewhat random Internet “one link leads to another” way. Most may be irrelevant, but was trying to show the same systems responsible for the benefits of exercise have some links to longevity, which has some links to nutrition. They may or may not be important or robust, but I find them interesting.

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Many people in commercial gyms are younger, in their twenties and thirties. Most don’t really know what they are doing. Most don’t work out with much intensity (although all of these things seem to have improved over time, different people have different goals, just exercising at all is a big win). Of course you still see lots of vanity lifting.

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I think exercise is about as close there is to a panacea. It can’t fix every problem, but it can help with so many, all at the same time. I’ve been back in the saddle for three days and I feel fan-freaking-tastic. Really grateful for the book Elastic Habits which has given me a reliable way to sustain exercise (among other things) and jump right back in after a long illness.

Yeah, I was afraid of that.

Oh, well. Start again at your beginnings.

I’m more worried about injury right now than piling on the weight. I’m sticking to goblet squats, kettlebell swings, overhead press and KB deadlift.

What I usually find is that I have a little left in me after the first set, and the second set is usually to failure.

This is easy on a flexitarian diet.

My real issue is snacking.

I struggle with eating a complete lunch, which facilitates snacking. I don’t like most leftovers, so I tend to not eat them, even if it’s what I had planned.

I decided to start making dinner at 6pm on the nose because it’s usually 8:30pm before I eat… That’s 6-7 hours without food, and I often find myself snacking while I make dinner. Unfortunately I have a lot of snack foods in the house due to my son’s pediatric feeding disorder. I have to find a way to trick my brain out of eating this stuff. But one thing that will help is dinner at 7pm, and I’m hoping my body will get used to eating at that time and not ask me to give it more food right before bed. I’d like to transition toward dinner as a small meal. So maybe I need to plan a snack around 4pm.

I’m not really into diet fads which is how I think of low-carb dieting, but I’m willing to consider cutting back on the ones that aren’t whole foods.

I like all the variations of exercise, but I really enjoy running, both for getting outside and the cardiovascular and mental health benefits. I do run intervals sometimes. I think a full out sprint would likely result in my injury. I have also found through careful experimentation that longer bouts of exercise over a certain intensity level (let’s say 170bpm) absolutely destroy me for a few days. Exercise at lower intensity (135bpm and lower) does basically nothing for my mental health. So the best option for me is vigorous activity that doesn’t get too crazy. Like in the 145-170bpm range. It’s fine if it spikes higher for a while, but I can’t sustain very high intensity exercise without incapacitating myself. I seem to do fine with HIIT as long as I limit the total session (including breaks) to 10 minutes. But as a sheer matter of preference, I’d rather run.

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I should emphasize that for non-sprinters, intensity should be at 70-90% of maximum, not 100%.^ You can do more on a bike where there is less chance of injury. Sprinting may be safer on a treadmill machine at the gym. Safer still if you add a little incline to mimic running uphill. Some machines display the MET, metabolic equivalents. One MET is approximately the energy you burn at rest, say watching television. The goal of the sprint is not to go for long times, but to work hard. If the MET is higher than twenty or thirty, the amount of effort is considerable.

^ Professional sprinters spend a lot of training time stretching and surprisingly little time sprinting their required competition distance. Even 200m champions spend much of their time running 50m or less; and consider they might run 100m in ten seconds. 400m athletes rarely run a full 400m in practices. Getting to speed is everything, the rest is just momentum. It is reasonable for lifters to train doing five sprints for five seconds. You can’t burn a lot of calories in 25 seconds, or lose muscle. But with intensity, you can burn calories for many hours following heavier exertion. Compare the bodies on those who run 100m or marathons.

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For lifting weights, studies suggest elderly people do best (along with many others) building up to 50-80% of the maximum weight they can do. Starting lower and going slower is usually wise.

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YMMV but I know of very few injuries in the endurance athletes I have known. Most on bikes but those have been from accidents, like being hit by a car.

OTOH I’ve known quite a few serious lifters who have had various injuries, especially their backs, even with much attention to good form.

Probably some degree of moderation and variety is good in exercise whatever the preferred sort.

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Most injured lifters I know hurt their shoulder. Runners tend to hurt ankles or specific leg muscles. Of course things vary widely.