I’m surprised that more airlines haven’t followed the model of Midwest Express. This airline is an actual joy to use! Some of the perks:[ul][]Two-across leather seats[]More legroom[]Good food[]Meals are served on china, with linen napkins[]Complimentary wine & champagne with meals[]Absolutely world-class customer service[/ul] All of these are in coach class! I won’t bore you with stories, but ME has been friendly and helpful with any travel problem I’ve had, and their prices are comparable to the major carriers.
I don’t have a cite handy, but my recollection is that both airlines (yes, I know Metrojet is just a USAir brand name) set up hubs in Baltimore something like 5 years ago. That was a couple of years after USAir bought Piedmont and shut down BWI as a hub.
My comment about low service was more related to capactity utilization. Even if BWI handles more passengers per year than DCA, it is much better able to. DCA has been packed to the brim for years, even with its new terminals, and has far fewer landing slots available than could be filled if capacity were available. BWI isn’t slot-controlled at all, and could easily handle much more traffic than it does.
I also don’t have a cite for landing fees and other ground costs, but supply/demand alone would suggest that it’s much higher for DCA than BWI or IAD. That is also a large part of the reason Southwest goes to Islip instead of LaGuardia, Providence and Manchester instead of Boston Logan, and Chicago Midway instead of O’Hare.
Grok, if they did, there would be no airlines using SFO cause Southwest refuses to fly there anymore.
Yes, Midwest Express has an excellent business model and I will fly with them whenever I can. They don’t have “coach” class, they are a single class airline. They offer a much more relaxed and enjoyable flying experience, but they don’t go where I want, usually, so I rarely fly them. And to get just about anywhere requires changing planes, which I hate.
I’ve flown Singapore a few times, and frankly, was disappointed in their service after hearing how wonderful they were supposed to be. I flew them from NYC to Bangkok and back and they were pretty much the same as any other US airline.
I think Southwest is successful because they are not trying to compete directly with the major players. If they tried to expand their service and do everything for everyone with their current business model, they would fail.
Actually, to some extent, some airlines DO mimic Southwest. For instance, some United Airlines flights in the western US do not allow advance seating. Airlines that are in DIRECT competition with Southwest tend to drop their fares to match, or waive one of the many “rules” that would require a Saturday night stay or greater advance purchase.
The major airlines actively market themselves to the business traveling public, as that’s who pays the REALLY high airfares.
Southwest market the leisure traveler by way of lower fares.
IMHO, as a travel professional, many of the people who choose to fly on Southwest are those that would otherwise drive or take the bus.
Bottom line… other major carriers don’t see Southwest as much of a competition.
And once again, someone who knows very little about DFW airport, Love Field and the Wright Amendment spreads misinformation and propagates the type of ignorance that the Straight Dope strives to eradicate.
Here are the facts:
At one time Dallas and Fort Worth operated their own airports (Dallas Love Field and Fort Worth Meacham Field). At the time, airlines were assigned routes by the CAB (Civil Aeronautics Board, predecessor to the FAA). During the 1940s, the CAB determined that it was inefficient to operate scheduled passenger service out of two airports that were less than 40 miles apart. So the CAB ordered Dallas and Fort Worth to come up with a plan for a single airport to be owned and operated jointly.
Plans were drawn up to build an airport halfway between the two cities. However, Dallas backed out at the last minute because – get this – the entrance faced west towards Fort Worth, instead of east towards Dallas! Fort Worth went ahead and built the airport, which became known as Greater Southwest International Airport, and moved its airline service from Meacham. Dallas continued to operate Love Field. And the CAB continued to press Dallas and Fort Worth to build and operate a joint airport.
In the 1960s, the CAB finally had enough of this back-and-forth and told the two cities if they didn’t come to an agreement, the CAB would choose for them. This ultimatum led to the building of Dallas Fort Worth Airport.
In order to protect each city’s investment in the new airport, all airlines serving both cities signed agreements that they would move their service to the new airport. And both cities agreed to close their respective airports. Fort Worth closed Greater Southwest (DFW was built just to the north of GSW). In the meantime, however, while the new airport was being built, Southwest Airlines came into being and began offering service from Dallas Love Field to a couple of other Texas cities.
When the new airport opened in 1974, Southwest argued that it hadn’t signed the agreements to move from Love Field, and therefore should not be forced to leave. Southwest also argued that it was granted its operating license by the State of Texas to operate within the state of Texas, and therefore wasn’t subjected to the dictates of the CAB in regard to where it operated. Southwest received a court order that allowed it to remain at Love. So now Dallas was in a dilemma. It had agreed to close Love when DFW opened, but now it was forced to keep it open because of Southwest.
Because Southwest’s handful of flights out of Love to a couple of Texas cities didn’t really threaten the new airport, everybody coexisted peacefully for a few years. Then, in the late 1970s, as airline deregulation began to happen, Southwest decided it wanted to fly from Love to New Orleans. Fort Worth perceived this as a chance for Dallas to re-establish unlimited, unregulated service from Love Field – in direct violation of the agreements the two cities signed to protect DFW. After all, Fort Worth lived up to its end of the bargain and gave up its airport in exchange for half of the new one. But Dallas now had not only its half of DFW, but also its own complete Love Field. Fort Worth, as you might expect, felt like it was getting the short end of the stick.
So Jim Wright, an influential congressman representing Fort Worth, crafted a compromise (the Wright Amendment) that allowed Southwest – or any other airline, for that matter – to fly outside of Texas from Love Field, provided the destination was within one of the four states that bordered Texas. It also allowed any plane with fewer than 56 seats to fly to any destination from Love. Of course, there weren’t any airplanes at the time that small that could travel very far.
So in reality, the Wright Amendment, rather than limiting Southwest, allowed the airline to expand its business, while at the same time protecting Fort Worth’s investment in DFW. And Southwest was more than happy with this arrangement because it gave it a monopoly at Love Field (remember, all of the other airlines agreed to not operate out of Love).
Again, everyone coexisted peacefully until the 1990s when Legend Airlines wanted to offer service out of Love Field to Los Angeles, Washington, and New York using large airplanes reconfigured with only 56 seats. And Continental Express wanted to offer service to Cleveland from Love, arguing that it was a separate airline from Continental and wasn’t subject to the DFW agreement that Continental had signed in the early 70s. So once again, Fort Worth felt threatened and assumed that it would be cheated by Dallas one more time. Unfortunately for Fort Worth, by then the original issues surrounding the airports were so far removed in time, the courts and the Department of Transportation sided with Legend and against Fort Worth, forcing Dallas to allow this service out of Love Field.
Of course, what goes around comes around. Legend went bankrupt within a year and ceased operations. So things are back to the earlier peaceful coexistence with the exception of a handful of Continental flights to Cleveland and a few American flights to Los Angeles, Chicago and New York. That is until another airline reopens this festering wound.
I grew up in Dallas/Fort Worth, and currently live in Los Angeles. I’ve never once flown into Love Field, mostly because of Wright Amendment restrictions. From the Southwest web site:
You can’t book a ticket on Southwest between Los Angeles and Love Field - not even with a stopover in, say, Oklahoma City.
You could, if sufficiently determined, book two round trips independently on Southwest - one from LA to OKC, and then another from OKC to Love. (I don’t know if they’re obligated to try to prevent you from doing this or not - they certainly can’t help you.) I started exploring that once, and it seemed to be cheaper just to buy a nonstop fare on American so I dropped the effort.
Well, Southwest is consistantly ranked VERY high in *The Fortune 500 Best 100 Companies to Work For
*.
As for me, I won’t fly Southwest unless it’s a short shuttle-type flight like the aforementioned Detroit to Chicago or San Jose to Reno/Tahoe/Vegas.
As far as for the most profit being in business class, tis true for the simple reason that most business travel is NOT booked very far in advance. If it is, it’s still usually booked as a full fare ticket, so that it is fully refundable/changeable.
FWIW, if you have a full fare coach ticket, you can usually (it used to be this way a couple years ago, assuming it still applies) upgrade to first class for an additional $30, $60 or $90 per leg. It depends on the length of the leg and the availability, of course, but is well worth it for the bigger seats, better service and free drinks. 
Thank you all for a great discussion! However, I must say I’m surprised more people have not come out in louder support for Southwest’s style of operation.
This list for example, by Cornflakes, giving possible reasons why people might not like Southwest (thus discouraging other airlines from copying. To me, all of these items seem like perks!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by cornflakes *
**
[QUOTE]
[list=1][li]There’s no first class. A lot of people refuse to fly first class.**[/li][/quote]
Fine with me. The one time I was upgraded to first class on another airline, I felt downright embarassed. Imagine letting me get on the plane before some woman and her four kids! I don’t deserve that.
**
[quote]
[li]There’s no reserved seating, meals, in-flight seating or other perks.**[/li][/quote]
Even better! We get on and off the plane fast. No meals means I get to bring MY OWN FOOD on the plane, and we save the time of having to cater the flight! That’s a no-brainer to me!
**
[quote]
[li]To keep prices down, Southwest prefers to fly out of older airports. Some airlines are returning to older airports; others prefer to fly out of the newer, more prestigious airports.**[/li][/quote]
You mean, I DON’T have to drive into JFK Airport at rush hour? YES!!!
**
[quote]
[li]Southwest only flies Boeing 737s. **[/li][/QUOTE]
As pointed out by others in the thread, no hassles due to varying types of planes. All the mechanics can work on them, all the pilots can fly them. Saves time and hassles.
To me, what’s important about air travel is that I get there. On time. With my luggage. Not whether I get the almond chicken or macaroni and cheese meal. I view these “amenities” (such as they are) as time wasters. I’m surprised more folks who travel on business don’t feel the same.
Maybe some people consider this a “no frills” approach. Maybe they’re right. But in the end, I fly to get somewhere, not to watch a movie or have a gourmet meal.
The fact that Southwest’s people are courteous is a bonus, and stands out in stark relief against the other airlines.
Looking back on it, maybe I should have submitted this to Great Debates… 
Everytime I have to fly, I use Southwest.
- It’s cheap. The flight last week only cost me 150 for two round trip tickets from Oakland to Ontario (CA).
1a)You can order tickets off the internet, and if you do, it’s even cheaper. - I have never had a problem with Southwest Customer Service, I have never had to deal with a rude flight attendent.
- Since the longest I’ve ever had to fly was from SLC to Oakland, I never was even bothered by the lack of dinner. They offer drinks and peanuts, and that’s usually all that there is time for anyway.
- I don’t understand why unassigned seating is a problem. I mean, y’all are going to the same place. So you don’t get the coveted window seat? Big deal, you’ll survive. So it takes an extra five minutes to get everybody seated? They probably make a bit of an allowance for that when they are scheduling the flights anyway, so it won’t inconvience you too much.
- Lack of inflight entertainment? Bring a book and a discman (Just make sure to turn it off during take off and landing). Shoot, bring a laptop and play Diablo II. You manage to entertain yourselves other times, why is it the airline’s job to turn on a (usually) crummy movie?
I think that Southwest gets high customer approval ratings because they deliver on what they promise. Cheap on time air travel. With the emphasis on on time. I hate the cattle car way that south west makes you line up twice. Once to check in luggage then again at the gate to get you pass. Then the mob at the gate to get on the plane. Dammit that is three lines even more than I thought. But I keep flying them because they are cheap and they are on time and have direct flights to where I want to go. Although I suppose I will have to fly something else to SFO now. They don’t promise the friendly skies and then not deliver. They promise the cheap skies and give them to you.
I would not fly southwest to New York from San Diego unless I got a direct flight. I don’t think at this time southwest has long nonstop flights.
Grok you fly to get some where. I fly to get some where FAST to do something. Many times the something is not to eat but to see customers or to visit interesting places and people some times it is to visit nice places to eat with interesting people there. If I can travel and eat I save time. The good meals on flying are not time wasters for business travelers or even tourists. It means I don’t have to find a restaurant to eat before or after I get there but can do it while I am stuck on the air plane. I don’t know if they are worth paying for it depends on my schedule.
First class is definitely the way to fly roomy seats, convenient boarding, good food and lots of drink. I don’t pay for this myself because it is a huge cost for what you get. But I appreciate it when I get booked on it for business. Unfortunately I only get booked on it if there is no other seats available because I am flying out a an hour or two notice.
The fact that I’m 6’2" and detest having some bozo recline and breaking my kneecaps is a GREAT reason to genuinely AVOID South West whenever I can. About 50% of the time (on American, Continental, and Delta anyway), they do reserve me an emergency exit seat when I ask (more legroom). If they don’t, I can always ask for a seat behind the emergency exit seat, since the emergency exit seat won’t recline.
It’s a waste of my time (and others’ I’m sure) to arrive two-hours early for a flight just to get the first boarding pass, when I can arrive a liesurely 15 minutes before the flight (10 minutes is the limit) and know my seat will be there.
It’s by NOT catering the flights that SW saves a lot of time. That’s a big part of their famous 20-minute turnaround time. Catering a flight is a big job. I’ve had flights delayed on other airlines because the food was taking a while to load.
And you CAN eat on SW - it’s just “bring your own”. I have always found airline food terrible, which is why I earlier said that I like this policy. I can bring whatever food I want on the plane. I choose it, don’t have to pay the airline for it, and time is saved by them not catering the flight. Again, I’m surprised this doesn’t appeal to more business people and others who are in a hurry.
BTW: That 20 minute turnaround is for real. At Islip, NY last year, I started my watch when the plane came to a stop at the gate. I was sitting on that plane 12 minutes later (I found the boarding process orderly - nothing like the mob scene a few posters have mentioned). We left the gate 18 minutes after I started the watch.
I’ve flown with them several times since - always on time, sometimes early. The other airlines have never come close to this level of service in my experience, which is why I started this thread. Despite the good facts presented in this thread, I remain unconvinced that the other airlines could not make a few simple changes that would dramatically improve their service.
Well, my fiance is 6’4 and all legs, and he’s never seemed to have a problem on Southwest. Of course, everybody has different experiences, so I can’t speak for you. But the leg-room issue never occurred to me because of his experiences.
I fly Southwest from Spokane to San Jose or Oakland all the time. Boarding isn’t really a mob scene… it doesn’t matter if you get in at the beginning or end of the group. I arrive an hour early, make the first or second group, and just look for a window seat with an empty overhead bin.
However, I wouldn’t want to fly Southwest for any flights longer than 3 hours. I like peanuts, but they aren’t a meal, and airport food is almost as bad as airline food.
I fly Southwest often. I guess I am a no-frills kind of traveler. I don’t even travel with checked luggage (If it doesn’t fit in my backpack I’m not taking it). I’ve been very happy with Southwest. It’s cheap and friendly.
I don’t mind the lack of first class because I am never going to fly first class. There is no way I am going to spend hundreds of dollars more so that I can get free liquor minatures and a better movie.
I’ve always found the seating to be very orderly, and I like being able to show up early and get my pick of seats.
As far as meals, airplane food is always going to be bad, so why try at all? I’d rather pack a peanut butter and jelly sandwich anyways.
I admit I am a pretty cheap traveler, though. I tend to stay in places where you have to bring your own sheets. Big airlines make their big money from business travelers. I travel for pleasure, business travelers travel because they have to. Even I can understand how one could come to appriciate the finer things offered by major airlines when you have to travel often (and when your company is picking up the tab).
-
-
- Southwest has always been a no-frills low-cost operation. That’s the way it was built from the start and to the guy’s credit, that is no simple thing to do. Still, starting a low-overhead business is in many ways easier and cheaper than taking a bloated company and getting rid of people one way or another, and then reassigning duties to those who remain.
~
- Southwest has always been a no-frills low-cost operation. That’s the way it was built from the start and to the guy’s credit, that is no simple thing to do. Still, starting a low-overhead business is in many ways easier and cheaper than taking a bloated company and getting rid of people one way or another, and then reassigning duties to those who remain.
-
- Reminds me of an interview with Jim Henson, when the interviewer asked why the Muppet Show had no competition. His reply was that (at the time) it was the most expensive regular TV show in the US to produce. Anybody who wanted to compete would have to spend more money per show than Henson did for an extended time, just to get their management working well and production set up and get market penetration anywhere near what the Muppet Show already had. It was simple to do, but there was no way to avoid it being very expensive, and any second-comers wouldn’t have the publicity of the one who was there first. -And so nobody else ever tried. - MC