because if they did, persecuting jews and blaming them for killing jesus wouldn’t feel as good, gotta really know it’s “us” versus “them” and gotta clearly know what separates “us” and “them.”
Moderator Warning
kaltkalt, since I recently gave you a moderator note for religious jabs in General Questions, I’m going to make this one an Official Warning. Let’s refrain from such extraneous remarks in the future.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
Judaism is and historically has been a non-proselytizing religion. The Jews never considered it necessary to become a Jew to be saved (they also did not have a clear understanding of salvation either). Rather, Jews were thought to be chosen as an example for the gentile nations. According to Jewish theology, any monotheistic people could gain God’s favor.
Oddly enough, Jews, at least Orthodox Jews, reject Christianity as another form of polytheism. They consider it deplorable that Christians would worship Jesus as equal to God the Father.
Early in Christian history, one first had to convert to Judaism before being baptized Christian. I’d image Christianity’s rejection by mainstream Judaism likely contributed to the removal of this requirement.
Also, in the Sermon of the Mount, Jesus discusses many of the harsh punishments due for sins in the Old Testament and systematically over turns the punishments. Thus one does not receive death for cursing his father, etc; however, he does not abolish these as sins. …
All so when he stopped the stoning of the prostitute! He also called the Torah ;“Your Law”, not God’s
Jesus is quoted as saying, The world would end in that generation, some churches say it didn’t mean generations as we think of it today, but Matthew who wrote it said there were 14 generations between David and Jesus;( using the word they way we do today.) Nor did he return in his father’s glory while some of the people that were listening to him had seen death! It didn’t happen! quite contrary to John’s telling of the end of the world.
It is a fact that it is the word of humans, not God!
It is a fact that the Bible is not the word of God? :dubious:
Which is not the question being addressed.
And harkening back to Alessan’s port earlier in the thread, OP might as well have asked why a majority of self-identified “Jewish” Americans/Israelis do NOT observe the strict Levitical/Deuteronomic rules. Reinterpretation has a longstanding legitimate standing in both religions’ mainstreams.
Moderator Note
If you want to discuss this, take it to Great Debates. Let’s stick to the question in the OP here.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
And (IIUC) the Jews never considered the Mosaic Law as universal (intended to be binding on all human beings everywhere).
Paul?Saul basically had a medical episode on the road to Damascus. he went off on his own, preaching a version of “Christianity” that was very much at odds with what the Jewish adherents of the cult believed in. The disicples abck in Jerusalem were particularly incensed over Paul telling diaspora Jews (and gentiles) that the Laws of Moses were superceded. In some of his epistles, Paul has some very nasty things to say about the contradictory message coming out of Jerusalem. Paul was summoned back to Jerusalem to answer for this. The compromise agreed on was that gentiles did not have to obey the laws of Moses to believe in Jesus.
What have the Romans ever done for us?
Well, in 70AD they levelled Jerusalem and slaughtered all the inhabitants (and most of those in the surrounding countryside) including much of the original Christian church. This left Paul’s sizable communities outside Judea as the majority and his message as the source of future Christian expansion.
The main sentiment in Jewish religion is that all people have to adhere to the 7 Noahide Laws. The 6th one, about eating meat from an animal that was still alive when it died is variously interpreted to include, for example, no meat at all. But a pretty basic list.
It does list sexuality immorality, which some, but not all, interpret to include homosexuality.
An alternate take about the difference in laws between Christian and Jews is the Dual-covenant Theology. But you’re not going to find many Christians that like that.
I don’t get the impression from the Biblical accounts that Paul was ever at odds with the main leaders of the Christian movement/church, only with a particular faction.
My cite: Paul’s POV as he gives it in Galatians, and the account of the Council of Jerusalem in Acts.
It’s not “we’re not jewish because we believe in Christ” it’s “we’re not jewish because we never were, oh and also we happen to believe in Christ.” Two different things going on there. For the most part it’s been gentiles following Christ so of course they don’t observe traditions of an ethnic group they don’t belong to.
Our belief is based on some human’s writing and translating. I doubt that God would have a contradictory Book. We take the word of other humans. There are people today who believe God talks to them but not many take them seriously. The Roman and Orthodox declared what was of God and what was not at the Nicene Council; many writings were discarded.
Moderator Note
Please see my previous note in post #30. Let’s drop the hijack. This goes for everyone.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
Frontline on PBS is addressing this question in a series on early Christianity. The first episode repeats tonight (Dec. 31). It’s fascinating.
Paul’s version:
Acts says:
Jesus was supposed to be the messiah, the King of the Jews who would throw of the yolk of the Romans and re-establish the kingdom of Israel - no different than half a dozen men before and after. Paul almost single-handedly transformed that into the som of God who died for the sins of the world and would establish a heavenly kingdom, not an earthly one -open to all, not just jews.
The majority of the church back in Jerusalem saw no reason to convert gentiles, they were all about having the Messiah return and create a kingdom - for Jews.
The best interpretation of the meeting is the Jerusalem clique saying “fine, do whatever you wnat with the gntiles, we don’t care.” What they did care about was Jews living abroad, in Antioch, Damascus, etc. - that claimed to be adherents of Jesus the Messiah but ignored the basic tenets of Judaism with the claim that it did not matter. Heck, when the Messiah returned and they had a kingdom of Israel, full of Jews, it darn well would matter.
Acts 6: a certain tension and rivalry developing:
Acts 11:
Basically, as the diaspora Jews wer persecuted for their blasphemy and driven out of Jerusalem, they (and especially Paul) began to spread the message to gentiles too. Already these Jews were essentially urbanized greek-speakers, Hellenistic and more worldly. Being disconnected from the Jerusalem church and living among gentiles, they were less concerned about the strict rules, and less inclined to force these rules on their gentile neighbours.
As I pointed out earlier, it was convenient that the jerusalem church (and temple) and the Jewish relgious power along with the central Christian congregation, were essentially wiped out and scattered. It left the Hellenist church the majority.
Galatians:2 Paul does not speak kindly of the Jerusalem church.
A little bit snide in saying “so-called pillars”?
In 2nd Corinthians 3 Paul refers to the Law of Moses as “…the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone,…” not the equal to the new message.
My apologies.