# why don't Kim Jong Il's sons have Jong as patronymic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 29, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943 "2010-06-29T15:43:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/1 "2010-06-29T15:43:23Z")
his two sons Kim Jong-un and Kim Jong-nam seem to have same first name (Jong) as the father. Whereas Kim Jong Il himself has second name like his father’s name, presumably patronymic. What’s the SD? ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/2 "2010-06-29T16:22:19Z")
“Kim” is the family name, if that helps. ---
**Author:** ![King\_Solomon\_Hill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/59ef9b/32.png) [@King\_Solomon\_Hill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/King_Solomon_Hill)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/3 "2010-06-29T16:55:13Z")
I’ve got no definitive answer and this is just speculation, but Kim Jong Il is said to have been born in 1942, 6 years before The DPRK was founded in 1948. I’m guessing at this point no one had considered that he would one day be inheriting control of North Korea so he only took his ‘middle’ name from his father. By the time he came to have his own sons presumably Kim Jong Il would have had the idea that at least one of them would be his successor and named them after himself. I believe there is some doubt about his actual birth date, but it was very likely before 1948 at least. ---
**Author:** ![osme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/df788c/32.png) [@osme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/osme)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/4 "2010-06-29T18:11:50Z")
In Korea the family name is first, then the individual 's name. I think this is common in many Asian countries. Kim -Jong Il Kim -Jong-Un Kim -Jong-Nam ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/5 "2010-06-29T18:20:53Z")
Jong is a generational name, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/6 "2010-06-29T18:21:16Z")
Do Koreans have a tradition of using patronymics? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/7 "2010-06-29T18:30:10Z")
Is the OP proposing that the expected sequence would have been: Kim Il-sung Kim Jong-il Kim _X_-jong ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/8 "2010-06-29T23:50:18Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > Is the OP proposing that the expected sequence would have been: > > Kim Il-sung > Kim Jong-il > Kim _X_-jong yes, that is exactly what I meant. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/9 "2010-06-30T00:52:00Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > yes, that is exactly what I meant. Do they do this in Korea? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/10 "2010-06-30T01:01:08Z")
Some families use a generation name, some don’t. In some families, the generation name is the same for both genders, for some it’s different for each gender. There really is a lot of variety in the system. Just as in the US, book publishers here offer an abundance of books to help prospective parents decide which system to follow, which generation name to use, and which personal name to give the child. There are also damn lia…er, fortune tellers who offer the same service. ---
**Author:** ![kim\_jung\_il](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/54ee81/32.png) [@kim\_jung\_il](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kim_jung_il)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/11 "2010-06-30T04:48:18Z")
Ancestry is very important over here and names are big business. There are people at universities who study ancestry of names. Basically, each family has different “laws” it must follow. With girls, it doesn’t matter too much, as they will be marrying into a new family. But for boys, there are rules that each family follows with regards to naming their children. Its works in a way that, male first cousins would have the same family name and middle name, but with differing last names. Then, the next generation would follow a rule, and so on and so forth. Its very complicated and I don’t fully understand it myself. A Korean friend tried to explain it me. ---
**Author:** ![Darryl\_Lict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@Darryl\_Lict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darryl_Lict)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/12 "2010-06-30T05:22:31Z")
> [@kim\_jung\_il](#): > > Ancestry is very important over here and names are big business. There are people at universities who study ancestry of names Dude, capitalism really isn’t all that bad! China is embracing it! Juche really isn’t going to be working out for the long run. And there aren’t a whole lot of last names in general. [QUOTE=wikipedia] There are only about 250 Korean family names currently in use, and the three most common (Kim, Lee, and Park) account for nearly half of the population. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/13 "2010-06-30T07:25:07Z")
> [@kim\_jung\_il](#): > > Ancestry is very important over here and names are big business. There are people at universities who study ancestry of names. “Over here”? You are posting from the DPRK? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/14 "2010-06-30T07:48:06Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > “Over here”? You are posting from the DPRK? :dubious: One might suppose that the Korean peninsula, while divided, was only divided relatively recently as would regard such customs. As such I think it is more than reasonable to assume naming conventions in the ROK would be very similar if not the same as in the DPRK. South Korea being quite modern I think posting to the internet from there is trivial. Of course the post might have come from the DPRK and Kim-Jong-Il himself. If so that would be remarkable. My money is on South Korea though. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/15 "2010-06-30T08:42:10Z")
When I post “over here,” I mean South Korea as that’s where I am. Although the two countries do share a common history up to the end of World War II, the societies have diverged widely. Besides the obvious bit of different systems of government, another major difference between North and South Korea is that North Korean society is highly conservative. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/16 "2010-06-30T11:26:46Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Of course the post might have come from the DPRK and Kim-Jong-Il himself. If so that would be remarkable. I believe the following quote makes it clear that that is not the case. > [@kim\_jung\_il](#): > > Its very complicated and I don’t fully understand it myself. A Korean friend tried to explain it me. I do wonder why one would have to specify having a Korean friend, while living in either Korea. Though I could write off the use of “over here” as a joke based on the username. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/17 "2010-06-30T15:05:22Z")
> [@kim\_jung\_il](#): > > Ancestry is very important over here and names are big business. There are people at universities who study ancestry of names. Exaggerating slightly, I thought there were only three surnames shared among most of the population. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/18 "2010-06-30T15:09:57Z")
[Wikipedia:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_names#Family_names) > [@](#): > > There are approximately 250 family names in use today. … The five most common family names, which together make up over half of the Korean population, are used by over 20 million people in South Korea. The names are: 1. Gim/Kim 2. Ri/I/Yi/Lee/Rhee/Rhie/Reeh/Yie/Ee 3. Bak/Pak/Park 4. Jeong/Chŏng/Chung/Jung 5. Choe/Ch’oe/Choi ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/19 "2010-06-30T15:20:17Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I believe the following quote makes it clear that that is not the case. Well, I assume that Kim Jong-Il’s friends are Korean. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943/20 "2010-06-30T15:49:38Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > [Wikipedia:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_names#Family_names) That article could use a little help, if I’ve read it correctly. In one place it says that the top three names account for over half the population. In another, it says the top five. While if the top three are over half, certainly the top five will be–but I infer from that type of wording that that’s the amount that’s “just enough” to put it over half. Just my 2¢. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-kim-jong-ils-sons-have-jong-as-patronymic/544943.md?page=2)