# Why don't libertarians, minarchists, and anarcho-capitalists just move emigrate to Somalia? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 10, 2016, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330 "2016-12-10T10:00:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/21 "2016-12-10T22:59:13Z")
Why would white American libertarians want to move to black muslim Somalia just because the government is ineffective? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/22 "2016-12-10T23:01:23Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > When I say paying for it, I don’t only mean taxes, but I also mean doing all of the other things that should be expected of a society. > > Your buddies are against regulations on pollution, higher wages, occupational safety, education, equality of sexes, equality of races, sexual orientation, women’s rights, gender rights, and a whole host of other things that for some reason bothers them. > > That’s paying for it. > > And… I also mean taxes. They are against paying taxes, period. That is a party platform for them, lower taxes. Not lower taxes as long as they are used for the greater good. > > The only way that your post addresses mine is if you are trying to claim that Somalia is less corrupt than the US. > > ETA: just realized, that maybe the first line of your post was a summary of what you were about to write? Straight out stupidity. You are a bigot. Remember that bigotry is defined as > [@](#): > > intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself. Yours is the sort of language that dehumanizes. Apart from Der Trihs, most other liberal and conservative posters are above this. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/23 "2016-12-10T23:02:31Z")
> [@desertmonk](#): > > We were talking about Libertarians, not Conservatives. They **are** different. Good point. But I think that even Libertarians want the most basic government services. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/24 "2016-12-10T23:13:33Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Straight out stupidity. You are a bigot. Remember that bigotry is defined as > > Yours is the sort of language that dehumanizes. Apart from Der Trihs, most other liberal and conservative posters are above this. If my disagreement with policies of intolerance and bigotry is bigotry, then what does your intolerance of policies of tolerance make you? Obviously, it makes you pretty fucking stupid, but we knew that. But if you are going to hold to that definition, then how can you possibly claim any sort of non-bigotry for yourself? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/25 "2016-12-10T23:47:06Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Why would white American libertarians want to move to black muslim Somalia just because the government is ineffective? So it’s racism? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/26 "2016-12-10T23:56:06Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Good point. But I think that even Libertarians want the most basic government services. I think it has yet to be determined what any bloc wants or will tolerate, but we should find out soon. The thing is we can project that everyone wants a service, but the bomb throwing starts in the next sentence. The rhetorical point is that we are seeing an electorate who are acting as if they want to get rid of government regulation altogether. If they wouldn’t be happy living under no government then they need to think about why that might be, and possibly fight a little ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/27 "2016-12-11T04:49:18Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > So it’s racism? To a degree, probably. Libertarianism has always had a strong overlap with racism. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/28 "2016-12-11T05:17:49Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > How can you have a working system without a hierarchy? When everyone is in charge then no-one is in charge. Wrong. > [@](#): > > Or, as WS Gilbert puts it, when everyone is somebody then no-one’s anybody. He was wrong too, although I think he was less serious about it in the first place. You’ve asked the right question: “HOW can you have a working system without a hierarchy?” I don’t think it’s exactly rocket science but it isn’t self-explanatory either, not in a world where we’ve mostly only organized formal structures with authoritarian hierarchies. Here’s one to contemplate: you can have hierarchies that do _not_ place any people above any other people. Hierarchies of power and authority are not the only possible hierarchies. You can have hierarchical arrangements of cell size (meeting size, component size, whatever you wish to call that). Think confederacy. Not as in General Robert E. Lee and the stars and bars and slavery and all that, but where at each and every stage the components of a whole retain their independent authority and cannot be bossed around by the larger collectivity of which they are a part. Nation, state, county, neighborhood, individidual. No bosses. You can have hierarchical arrangement of the permanence of a decision made. You are perhaps familiar with the notion of decision entirely by consensus. Consensus decisions do not involve any form of hierarchical authority, not even of the majority. The problem with pure unmodified consensus is that tomorrow you may not have a consensus about whether or not you reached a state of consensus today. Stir in a model for promoting a decision to increasingly more permanent location in a structure of decisions, though, and you can end up with something you can plan and implement with. If you use your imagination you can probably come up with some ideas of your own. Anarchy isn’t liberal or conservative as those are traditionally constituted. The radical right and the radical left both dream of it. Neither has taken a pragmatic approach towards experimenting with implementations though. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/29 "2016-12-11T08:30:41Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What does “reputable source” matter? What matters is how the followers of a belief define it, and plenty of libertarians equate libertarianism with anarchy - especially the “Every man for himself, law of the jungle” variety of anarchy. They just all think that\* they’ll\* get to be one of the warlords or robber barons instead of one of the victims. I’m not aware of any of those folks. I haven’t met a single person who has claimed they want zero government. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/30 "2016-12-11T15:11:10Z")
As a charter member of anarcho-capitalism (I have the complete works of Milton Friedman purchased via Amazon Prime), I would happily move to Somalia, except [there’s no way to get a decent cheeseburger there](https://www.facebook.com/mcdonaldssomaliaofficial/). And forget real pork barbecue. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/31 "2016-12-11T16:13:04Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Let’s get real, the number one reason: Too many black people! I have a multiracial family and I grew up in an incredibly difficult place and time (MD/DE 1990s, not Deep South Jim Crow era). I had to change schools multiple times due to racist abuse, spent time in a mental institution when I was a teenager because I couldn’t leave my house without being attacked, etc. From the age of 12 to about 24 all of my friends were black. White liberals would not cross the street into my neighborhood, even though it was middle class with many small business owners, a local county commissioner, a judge, and a city council member among my immediate neighbors. By far the most racist people I’ve ever dealt with (who would freely use the N word randomly, for example, if they thought I was a random white guy) were white Democrats. I’ll never forget the time I was at the house of the local lawyers and huge Kathleen Kennedy Townsend supporters who started calling Tiger Woods “nigger” about 57 times for no reason. Oh, I’m sure Republicans had their share, but I didn’t know many. Most of the ones I knew were of the Wayne Gilchrest (who was attacked by nutjub far-right chickenhawks for having a gay brother, among other things) variety and most of the Robert Ehrlich types were rather inclusive if too religious for my tastes. Some Republicans would be accused of tokenism but (white) Democrats wouldn’t even associate with black people unless they hired them as servants. I consider myself a Libertarian. There are many types. I don’t agree with people like Hans-Herman Hoppe and a lot of the Ron Paul/Lew Rockwell people, for example. The libertarians I associate with are by far the LEAST racist and most open and welcoming people in the world. Without exception they support equal rights and see “big govt” as an enemy for all the things it does to oppress minorities as much as anything else. Most of the people I know who have been on the anti-militarization of the police and anti-brutality beat for the past 15-20 years were libertarians. Often for reasons of racial equality as much as anything. Long before Ferguson. I know white journalists and lawyers who worked for free to get wrongly convicted black men out of prison and off death row. I know libertarian lawyers who represented small black business owners when it came to racist regulations. Most while libertarians I know support BLM. If they don’t it’s usually a tactical disagreement. I don’t have 1 black friend or family member, but a majority of friends and family who belong to at least one minority group (a few black and gay relatives, for example). SO fuck outta here with that racist stuff. Unless you want to apply it equally to your fake-liberals and all those other piece of shit racists. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/32 "2016-12-11T16:17:58Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Why would white American libertarians want to move to black muslim Somalia just because the government is ineffective? > [@drad\_dog](#): > > So it’s racism? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > To a degree, probably. Libertarianism has always had a strong overlap with racism. Not necessarily, but it is a completely different existent culture with a different religion and language. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/33 "2016-12-11T16:31:25Z")
Also, while far from living in Somalia, I live in Columbus Ohio and I am a tOSU alumnus. We have a large Somali population. This has been in the news lately for obvious reasons. Not only am I friends and professional colleagues with many, many of my kids’ best friends are Somali and I have gone out of my way to publicly support their presence and continued immigration in general. I would trade Trump and any number white pseudo-liberal douchebags for an unlimited number of Somalian refugees in my city in heartbeat. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/34 "2016-12-11T17:00:55Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I’m not aware of any of those folks. I haven’t met a single person who has claimed they want zero government. Mr. Libertarian, Murray Rothbard, was an anarcho-capitalist who approached it from a natural rights perspective. Some modern libertarians consider themselves “Rothbardians”, like Walter Block, Hans Herman Hoppe, and Judge Andrew Napolitano. The Mises Institute is their home base. David Friedman, son of Milton Friedman, is another libertarian anarchist who approaches it from a utilitarian perspective. The libertarian response to the Somalia argument has been explained many times. People just satisfy themselves by bringing it up as soon as they hear about it, and then continue on their way without considering the response. The libertarians would say that a given society would be made worse by the presence of the state. So they wouldn’t compare industrialized capitalist USA with stateless Somalia. They would compare hypothetical stateless USA with authoritarian USA, or stateless Somalia with Somalia with state. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2016, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/35 "2016-12-11T23:49:28Z")
> [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](#): > > I have a multiracial family and I grew up in an incredibly difficult place and time (MD/DE 1990s, not Deep South Jim Crow era). I had to change schools multiple times due to racist abuse, spent time in a mental institution when I was a teenager because I couldn’t leave my house without being attacked, etc. > > From the age of 12 to about 24 all of my friends were black. White liberals would not cross the street into my neighborhood, even though it was middle class with many small business owners, a local county commissioner, a judge, and a city council member among my immediate neighbors. > > By far the most racist people I’ve ever dealt with (who would freely use the N word randomly, for example, if they thought I was a random white guy) were white Democrats. I’ll never forget the time I was at the house of the local lawyers and huge Kathleen Kennedy Townsend supporters who started calling Tiger Woods “nigger” about 57 times for no reason. Oh, I’m sure Republicans had their share, but I didn’t know many. Most of the ones I knew were of the Wayne Gilchrest (who was attacked by nutjub far-right chickenhawks for having a gay brother, among other things) variety and most of the Robert Ehrlich types were rather inclusive if too religious for my tastes. Some Republicans would be accused of tokenism but (white) Democrats wouldn’t even associate with black people unless they hired them as servants. > > I consider myself a Libertarian. There are many types. I don’t agree with people like Hans-Herman Hoppe and a lot of the Ron Paul/Lew Rockwell people, for example. The libertarians I associate with are by far the LEAST racist and most open and welcoming people in the world. Without exception they support equal rights and see “big govt” as an enemy for all the things it does to oppress minorities as much as anything else. > > Most of the people I know who have been on the anti-militarization of the police and anti-brutality beat for the past 15-20 years were libertarians. Often for reasons of racial equality as much as anything. Long before Ferguson. I know white journalists and lawyers who worked for free to get wrongly convicted black men out of prison and off death row. I know libertarian lawyers who represented small black business owners when it came to racist regulations. Most while libertarians I know support BLM. If they don’t it’s usually a tactical disagreement. > > I don’t have 1 black friend or family member, but a majority of friends and family who belong to at least one minority group (a few black and gay relatives, for example). > > SO fuck outta here with that racist stuff. Unless you want to apply it equally to your fake-liberals and all those other piece of shit racists. I’m with this person ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/36 "2016-12-12T16:28:07Z")
Somalia does have government. If you move there and set up.a factory, a group of guys with guns is going to show up and tell you that you need permission from the local authorities to do anything. The fact that the authority is a warlord or tribal elder doesn’t mean that they won’t enforce their decisions at gunpoint. You can’t even operate a pirate ship without permission of the local boss. Same with places like Kowloon Walled City back when it existed, or other famous ungoverned areas. The local government was just what would be called in most places organized crime. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/37 "2016-12-12T16:29:36Z")
[Some say](http://footprints.blogs.com/estonia/2006/09/estonia_most_li.html) Estonia is the most Libertarian country in the world. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/38 "2016-12-14T18:55:54Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Let’s get real, the number one reason: Too many black people! I can’t believe it took to post 10 for this board to come up with the obvious truth. This board is slipping. Everyone knows that all libertarians, minarchists, and anarcho-capitalists are evil racists who hate and want to murder all non-white people. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/39 "2016-12-14T18:58:20Z")
Also, many of them live with their mom and their mom’s house isn’t in Somalia. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330/40 "2016-12-14T19:47:58Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > . . . Everyone knows that all libertarians, minarchists, and anarcho-capitalists are evil racists who hate and want to murder all non-white people. They’re evil racists who want to exclude blacks and gays from equal access to public accommodation. But you knew that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-libertarians-minarchists-and-anarcho-capitalists-just-move-emigrate-to-somalia/774330.md?page=3)