# Why don't many US universities have M.A. programs anymore? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 29, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-many-us-universities-have-m-a-programs-anymore/569431 "2011-01-29T18:09:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-many-us-universities-have-m-a-programs-anymore/569431/21 "2011-01-30T03:45:22Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > **even sven** , you can usually teach at community colleges with a master’s. Some 4-years may accept people with no PhD on an adjunct basis as well, usually teaching the non-core classes… From what I’ve heard even community colleges are starting to require PhDs in certain fields (like the humanities) because of the oversupply of PhD holders. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-many-us-universities-have-m-a-programs-anymore/569431/22 "2011-01-30T05:12:50Z")
I suspect the basic contention of the OP is wrong. There are more masters programs than ever before. This is because there are more graduate students than ever before. This is partly because the required education level in many jobs has increased and partly because of what I could call increased educational aspirations. A lot of people who would never have thought of going to college sixty years ago (or even thirty years ago) are now going to college just because it seems like most people do now. A small proportion of those people (who might otherwise have not even started college) discover that they are very good at the courses they take. They finish college and look around at the other good students and say, “Hey, there are other students who did as well as me in their courses who are going to grad school. Maybe I should go to grad school.” Because of this, just as there are many more students going to college than sixty years ago (and more than went to college even thirty years ago), there are also many more students going to grad school than sixty years ago or even thirty years ago. Because of this, the top grad schools in each subject can be more selective. They can say to prospective grad students, “Hey, we’re one of the top schools in the field. We only take very serious students. In particular, we don’t take students who only want a masters degree, since we get enough first-rate applicants that we can limit ourselves to students going for a Ph.D.” I think what the OP has done is look at just top programs in each subject, which indeed don’t want students who don’t want to get a Ph.D. You need to look at less prestigious programs. They are willing to take students who don’t want a Ph.D. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-many-us-universities-have-m-a-programs-anymore/569431/23 "2011-01-30T07:23:50Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > I think what the OP has done is look at just top programs in each subject, which indeed don’t want students who don’t want to get a Ph.D. You need to look at less prestigious programs. They are willing to take students who don’t want a Ph.D. Exactly correct. ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-many-us-universities-have-m-a-programs-anymore/569431/24 "2011-01-30T14:58:04Z")
At least in economics, the standalone MA is bouncing back. A number of schools including my alma mater are offering low-octane MA programs with core econometrics sequences so that graduates can go into the job market with quantitative skills. The downside is that they produce people who can code in SAS but don’t really understand what they’re doing. On another board they’re called ‘REG monkeys’ from the STATA command to run a linear regression. The upshot is that most standalone MA programs will probably be oriented toward career changers. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-many-us-universities-have-m-a-programs-anymore/569431/25 "2011-01-30T21:58:49Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Anyone who goes tens of thousands of dollars into debt for “love of learning” is, frankly, nuts. If you’re a PhD student, you can usually get funding and do it for free. Masters students have access to way fewer sources of funding. Maybe this is part of the reason. Back when I went\*, I looked through the graduate division catalog and it seemed that most departments considered a master’s degree to a necessary stepping stone on the way to the doctorate. If that’s been done away with, then new grad students can immediately seek funding as Ph.D. students. OTOH, it could be a potential disadvantage if the student has to interrupt his or her study for whatever reason. In the old days there would be at least a master’s degree to show for the work completed so far. \*yes, a very long time ago ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-many-us-universities-have-m-a-programs-anymore/569431/26 "2011-01-30T22:10:57Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > **even sven** , you can usually teach at community colleges with a master’s. Some 4-years may accept people with no PhD on an adjunct basis as well, usually teaching the non-core classes. > I do know that some HMOs, like Kaiser, are preferentially hiring more MFTs instead of PhD/PsyD psychologists. It seems that there is a market for that. Of course many therapy degrees at that level require more training than just the degree. Both of these are accurate. I have a master’s degree and am a full-time faculty member at a community college. My SO’s mother is ABD, and an adjunct faculty at several four-year and two-year colleges in CA. Our community college system in the state of CO is not moving to requiring PhDs, and I am not aware of any other cc systems that are. It’s hard to hire doctorate-level clinicians in some of the treatment systems, like the community mental health centers and some HMOs, for the salaries they offer, so those systems have traditionally listed job requirements of a master’s, but with a doctorate preferred. According to [this website](http://www.gradschools.com/programs/masters), there are over 50,000 master’s degree programs in the U.S. I have no idea whether those programs are stand-alone terminal programs or are part of the doctorate programs. I also don’t know how accurate that website is. [Wiki says](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master's_degree) that the number of master’s degrees awarded in the U.S. has more than doubled in the past 40 years. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-many-us-universities-have-m-a-programs-anymore/569431/27 "2011-01-30T22:58:37Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Wouldn’t it give you an edge in applying for certain types of jobs? I’d think an MSEE would be preferable to a BSEE, or that someone with an MA in American Lit plus teaching credential would be a more attractive candidate than someone with only a BA and the credential. Notice that MS is different than a MA. I’ve known a fair of MS Engineers. In some cases it was picking up specialized skills and in a lot of cases they went to school after hours and their company picked up the tuition or at least part of it. In education, a lot of it is credentialism. If you have MS or PhD after you name you make more money. Of course, it isn’t limited to education. I hear graduate degrees count a lot in the military also now days. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-many-us-universities-have-m-a-programs-anymore/569431/28 "2011-01-31T00:34:33Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Notice that MS is different than a MA. There is no consistency whatsoever to the naming of degrees, and you should not attempt to assign any meaning to them. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-many-us-universities-have-m-a-programs-anymore/569431/29 "2011-01-31T00:59:54Z")
Usually, if you have two people, and one has an MA and one has an MS, that tells you that person A graduated from a program that gave an MA and person be graduated from an MS program. In other words, one school may give a MA in psychology, the other may give an MS, and the degree requirements are equivalent in both. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-many-us-universities-have-m-a-programs-anymore/569431/30 "2011-01-31T19:50:44Z")
I just came across an interesting article in _The Economist_ on graduate degrees. [The disposable academic: Why doing a PhD is often a waste of time](http://www.economist.com/node/17723223) The general thesis is that in many fields the production of PhD degrees far exceeds any demand and many other fields doesn’t earn enough of a premium over a Masters, to make it worthwhile to spend the extra years to earn it. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-many-us-universities-have-m-a-programs-anymore/569431/31 "2011-01-31T21:14:00Z")
The value of a standalone master’s versus a PhD varies by field. In education, teachers are expected to get a master’s at some point in their careers; a doctorate would be pointless unless you want to get into research, curriculum development or high-level leadership; IOW, in more specialized, highly-skilled areas. In communications, in which field I got my master’s, there are few people working in industry who have doctorates; most of the people who do are former academics, at least to the best of my knowledge. No one I know has ever gotten a PhD for any reason other than to teach at the university level. In government, any postgraduate degree will count towards required experience for some jobs, but getting a doctorate isn’t worth it for the time spent getting the degree versus the credit you’d get for the degree. Also, a master’s (or higher) is required for certain management-level jobs. A PhD might be required for certain professional jobs at agencies like the VA, but this is far from the norm. Many higher-level military officers end up with a master’s that they earn in conjunction with their studies at their respective war college. For example, graduates of the Army War College can get their master’s in public administration from Shippensburg University; this is the reason why Ship can claim so many famous generals and retired generals as alumni. If you look at the bios of people like Tommy Franks and Jay Garner, they’ve got this degree. IIRC, however, their specific program is only open to people at the War College, although anyone can get a regular MPA. Gen. Franks, in fact, was a guest speaker at commencement one year, an honor generally reserved for alumni. In any event, a master’s degree at a minimum is desirable for career advancement, among other reasons. ---
**Author:** ![BetsQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@BetsQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BetsQ)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-many-us-universities-have-m-a-programs-anymore/569431/32 "2011-01-31T21:56:55Z")
I’m in a Ph.D. program in the social sciences. When I started, I applied to the master’s program, wrote a master’s thesis, and then applied to the Ph.D. program. Just after I finished the master’s, the department decided to get rid of the standalone master’s program. Now students applied directly to the Ph.D. program, some from undergrad, some from other MA programs. Instead of a thesis, all students must write a second year paper, which is a much more useful activity than writing a thesis. Students who do not finish their Ph.D.s but do a sufficient amount of coursework and the second year paper will still be given a master’s degree as a parting gift. The department’s biggest motivation for doing this, from what I heard, is that Ph.D. students count for more than masters students when the university evaluates departments. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-many-us-universities-have-m-a-programs-anymore/569431/33 "2011-01-31T22:02:47Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Usually, if you have two people, and one has an MA and one has an MS, that tells you that person A graduated from a program that gave an MA and person be graduated from an MS program. In other words, one school may give a MA in psychology, the other may give an MS, and the degree requirements are equivalent in both. Absolutely true. I am in a program now that gives me my choice between an MS and an MA- the difference between the two is just a couple of courses and an oh-so-slightly different thesis requirement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/why-dont-many-us-universities-have-m-a-programs-anymore/569431.md?page=1)